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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 11 Mar \ parent \ on: Monero Explained monero
Thank you for your comment.
Let me speak to some of what you said... understanding that I approach this conversation in seriously good faith.
I have spent 'hours' on r/Monero reading and looking, searching, asking questions (rhetorically of course I don't have a Reddit account) and none of the issues that you've brought up are actually getting addressed.
Bitcoin transactions are not visible on chain. I use Lightning every single day, and my Lightning transactions aren't visible not to mention I can open new 'Lightning nodes' on a phone that's a brand new node pretty quickly?
It's not that 'monero is tainted'... it's that governments don't accept 'coinjoined' coins to include Monero in many cases. No it's not a technical issue it's a regulatory one. Having said that... even if a 'coin is tainted' you can still open a Lightning channel with it, and send from it with excellent privacy to an exchange and the exchange has no idea what the sending node is, or the channel-opening UTXO if you're the sender.
No this may not be "perfect" but it's faster and cheaper than on-chain anything.
When you pay with Lightning... how do they see your transaction history?
I don't agree with the 'tail emission' of Monero. Why? Because it sounds like there was little/no incentive for the miners to 'keep mining' and so the 'tail emission' was added later.... to make sure the miners continued in the absence of a dynamic fee market?
I don't deny that Monero is used in DNMs... I just have no interest in them. I'm interested in regular commerce and saving, plus buying gift cards to the extent available to pay for occasional day-to-day expenses. How many coffee shops, bars, and restaurants accept Monero in Europe? I mean I guess its some... but it's hard enough to get them to accept Bitcoin introducing them to something else would confuse them even more.
As far as an 'inflation bug' I need to do more research on this. However I have every reason to believe that Bitcoin's supply is easily verified through command-line. Monero's? Even the people on r/Monero aren't sure when they get to talking about it.
As far as hard forks are concerned... there are comments on r/Monero about how slow/uneven/uncoordinated the planned upgrades and hardforks are. When they take place... what they entail... and even who's doing them? Do i want Bitcoin which is super hard to change to store wealth... or something which is planning on 'changing' to try to onboard merchants where they have to contend with a hard fork?
I personally believe that privacy is more nuanced... and when and if Monero gets the 'hard fork' plus something like Lightning I'll be interested. However those things don't exist yet.
After all, just from a practical standpoint, how am i to send 5 sats worth or the equivalent with Monero instantly like I can on Stacker News?
Lightning transactions may be private, but they're anchored to Bitcoin's transparent blockchain. Every channel opening and closing transaction is permanently visible, creating immutable fingerprints that can be analyzed. With Monero, privacy exists at the protocol level - there's no transparent base layer to compromise your privacy.
You mention creating new Lightning nodes on phones, but this glosses over the technical complexity required to do this securely. Most people use KYC versions of the LN or custiodial due to UX issues with the LN. Monero's privacy works automatically without requiring expert knowledge of channel management, routing, and proper node configuration.
The distinction between exchanges rejecting Monero for "regulatory reasons" rather than "technical issues" actually proves Monero's effectiveness. Regulators pressure exchanges precisely because Monero's privacy works too well to be easily surveilled.
When you pay with Lightning, your channel opening/closing transactions are visible on-chain. Chain analysis can link these to your identity, especially if you've ever used KYC services. With enough data points, your Lightning privacy can be compromised. Not to mention that if LN was a perfect privacy solution, I think it would be getting attacked more like Monero getting the boot from a lot of exchanges (the bounty to crack it) and the Samourai Wallet devs and Tornado devs. When it REALLY works, they come for you.
This wasn't "added later" - it was part of Monero's original design to ensure long-term security. Bitcoin faces a potential security cliff when block rewards diminish and must rely solely on transaction fees. And Monero is STILL deflationary because even with a tail supply, the percentage that that tail represents compared to the total will keep declining. And it helps to replace coins that were lost due to entropy such as people losing access... I've heard really fascinating arguments about the tail of Monero vs Bitcoins hard stop. I'd argue a hard stop is actually not going to be great for bitcoin, but that's down the road.
Monero's supply is verifiable through mathematical proofs. It's just a little more complex of a process than verifying the supply of bitcoin.
5 sat payments aren't that interesting IMO... But Lightning's capacity for micropayments is a separate innovation that could theoretically be built on any base layer.
The fundamental difference remains: Bitcoin bolts privacy features onto a transparent system, while Monero builds privacy into its foundation. This architectural difference creates entirely different security and privacy models.reply
Monero's privacy works automatically without requiring expert knowledge of channel management, routing, and proper node configuration.
I respectfully believe... that these things aren't that complicated. There isn't much... 'node configuration' involved? People just want decent money that isn't confiscated, censored, or inflated away by a central bank. In other words, privacy for better or worse for most people is an afterthought...
And while I agree that the 'opening transaction' is public... what happens within the Lightning channel isn't published anywhere. For example... opening a channel, swapping out through to on-chain (depleting the outbound liquidity) then closing the channel and discarding/donating the UTXO to a developer (LOL). Anyone tracking that UTXO... has nothing to go by? Your 'new' UTXO has no previous on-chain record right?
I'm not an expert on this stuff but there a lot of sophisticated tools that essentially accomplish the same things.
"Not to mention that if LN was a perfect privacy solution, I think it would be getting attacked more like Monero getting the boot from a lot of exchanges (the bounty to crack it) and the Samourai Wallet devs and Tornado devs."
I'm not sure that Samourai Wallet's privacy was necessarily that great... I think if those guys had not 'poked the bear' the governments wouldn't have come after them. They were really outspoken about just how much they wanted criminals to use their services.
I mean talk about post a target on one's back... what were those guys thinking?
I could absolutely be wrong (we all could be) but I am very skeptical that the declining block reward will be an issue for Bitcoin for a very long time. With ongoing adoption, large institutions, individuals, and even countries (imo) there will always be on-chain demand even if most of it right now is speculation/jpegs.
Eventually most of the on-chain demand IMO will be opening and closing Lightning channels in order to spend (or splicing channels to make them bigger or smaller) and the demand for this will be more than enough.
"5 sat payments aren't that interesting IMO... But Lightning's capacity for micropayments is a separate innovation that could theoretically be built on any base layer." I respectfully disagree... Lightning is doing something traditional payment methods absolutely cannot do and that's instant micropayments. Even other 'cryptos' can't because they are not proof-of-work so their tokens don't really count (my opinion).
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