An upgrade - it is a hard fork. Maybe the upgrade/fork will bring benefits, if so great. But how do merchants and vendors whose focus is on their business keep up with the forks and changes?

• Yes, it's a software upgrade/hardfork. The same way vendors or anyone else upgrades their software with any other program or PoS they use. It is becoming much more infrequent over time than even those things so not sure why there would be an issue. That's already a thing businesses do.
• Also, the upgrade includes something called CARROT (Cryptonote Address on Rerandomizable-RingCT-Output Transactions) which is compatible with older address schemes so they don't have to upgrade right away (although they won't benefit from any of the improvements if they dont obviously)

Yes fees are cheaper... when there is little on-chain usage. Any blockchain with widespread usage and popularity will have higher fees. Low fees on L1 low usage.

• This is false.
  The reason it will always be cheaper to transact on Monero, even if it had the transaction count of Bitcoin, is because blocksize adjusts to demand. Contrast this to Bitcoins blocksize that is fixed and users are bidding for limited blockspace so an increase in usage = growing fees that will never fall. We already had a real world example of dynamic blocksize kicking in action last year.

Bitcoin wasn't broken...all you do (in my opinion) is increase the required storage space for spam on home nodes. We don't want spam to be cheap we want it to be expensive

• You're right I shouldve phrased it differently that's why I put "broken" in quotes. Maybe "shown the disadvantages of fixed blocksize" would have been a better way to decribe it because there are also advantages to it.
• There is a fee penalty to stop miners from increasing the blocksize too fast. There has to be a long sustained use (which would cost spammers a lot of money) for it to actually increase without penalty. It also decreases the blocksize when usage falls again.

Lightning network fees are low, really low

• Yes, but the LN network fees aren't the only costs when you use Phoenix/ACINQ. They charge extra to open channels and transact. They take their own cut. Vlad from Bitcoin TakeOver Podcast recently showed how he lost $40 over lightning when he could have sent the same payment on-chain for $1. So depends on network congestion and how large of a payment you want to send if it is worth it. With Bitcoin larger payments might be better to send on-chain. But larger payments are always better to send on Monero vs Phoenix/ACINQ/LN. https://xcancel.com/TheVladCostea/status/1869359856010019058

What I would ask then is... how and why should I expect 'privacy' to order tacos and a beer at a restaurant? Or tip some rando on Stacker News? There are always going to be tradeoffs in the real-world and 99% of the time nobody cares.

• You can decide that for yourself. All I'm saying is for those that want strong default privacy it isn't an option to use Phoenix/ACINQ as a substitute. People also use cash to pay for those things which is more private than Phoenix/ACINQ. And if your appeal is to popularity how do you think the vast majority are going to use Lightning? Probably not permissionlessly/privately (if at all). Why wouldn't they simply use fiat if it is more popular to make those payments and no one cares?

As far as censorship goes...yes Phoenix was 'shut down' but it is still available. With the intro of Bolt 12 (not to move the goalposts) according to Acinq they cannot see the receiving node when you send. Or the sending node when you receive... if the transacting node is also Bolt 12.

• That's the problem isnt it? Bolt12 is neither default, nor widely supported, and I'm guessing it will always be a minority that use it because of that (look at coinjoins as an example). But yes, if the receiver's wallet supports it, and they enable it, blinded paths is definitely a huge privacy improvement.

Bitcoin in my opinion is a "digital capital" network... not a "cash" network....it was always about more than payments.

• This is just false. Maybe that is what Bitcoin has turned into, but even ignoring the literal title of the white paper, simply look at the cypherpunks and history that paved the way and led to Bitcoin. Digital cash payments were always the goal. Cash, privacy, and untraceability was always emphasized in their content and titles:

"Digital Cash & Privacy" 1993 -Hal Finney
"The Case for Privacy" 2005 -David D. Friedman
"Credit With Privity" 1996 -Nick Szabo
"Confidential Auditing" 1998 -Nick Szabo
"Blind Signatures for Untraceable Payments" 1982 -David Chaum
"Untraceable Electronic Mail, Return Addresses, and Digital Pseudonyms" 1988 -David Chaum
"The Dining Cryptographers Problem: Unconditional Sender and Recipient Untraceability" 1988 -David Chaum
"Proofs that Yield Nothing But Their Validity or All Languages in NP Have Zero-Knowledge Proof Systems" 1991 -Oded Goldreich, Silvio Micali, and Avi Wigderson
"Online Cash Checks" 1989 -David Chaum
"On Digital Cash-Like Payment Systems" 2005 -Daniel A. Nagy
"Secrecy, Authentication, and Public Key Systems" 1979 -Ralph C. Merkle
"Computer Systems Established, Maintained, and Trusted by Mutually Suspicious Groups" 1982 -David Chaum
"b-money" 1998 -Wei Dai
"The Crypto Anarchist Manifesto" 1988 -Timothy C. May
"The Cyphernomicon" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"Contracts in Cyberspace" 2000 -David D. Friedman
"Contracts with Bearer" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Crypto Glossary" 1992 -Eric Hughes and Timothy C. May
"Cyberspace, Crypto Anarchy, and Pushing Limits" 1994 -Timothy C. May
"The Geodesic Market" 1998 -Robert Hettinga
"The God Protocols" 1999 -Nick Szabo
"Trusted Third Parties are Security Holes" 2001 -Nick Szabo
https://nakamotoinstitute.org/library/
https://image.nostr.build/1f6d4cc6528129a7b9c9248a5203ceaaddac6132d196c4941c22f788ffa0c9a1.jpg

The only cold wallets on that list today are Keystone and Trezor. The rest are hot, right or don't exist 'yet'?...I would also add that 'paper' wallets are hot wallets they are not cold.

• Everything I listed are offline use/cold wallets. The only ones that aren't ready (but planned) are Passport Prime and XMRSigner. XMRSigner is ~75% complete. https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vThorOfflineSigningLibrary_XmrSignerToProduction.html
• Confused. Not sure why you would define a paper wallet as "hot". If I have keys that have never touched the internet, and I only use it as cold storage, how is that "hot"?

It only costs a few cents... because almost no-one is using it

• Not true. Already addressed this above.

Can you send one cent (or the equivalent) instantly for a post you like on Monero? how about 10 cents instantly just to post yourself? The L2 (on Bitcoin) makes this possible... and I'm not sure (because I don't know) if monero can make transactions like this. . And if it can't, then it is inferior to Bitcoin today as a monetary network. Monero needs an L2 which doesn't exist yet.

• Yes, only 3-4 cents to transact at the moment. In fact, there is a Nostr client that people do this with including myself https://mostard.org/
• Inferior in what way? Instant payments? Sure. Privacy/security/Permissionless UX/simplicity? No.

By the way, are there any companies 'working' on the Monero L2 or is it all... anonymous devs?

There are both of those groups "working" on Monero

This is an issue I have with altcoins like Monero. Even if I wanted to experiment with them or 'try them out' to decide for myself their merits I absolutely DO NOT download poorly vetted, sketchy software involving cryptocurrencies or anything else. It MAY be OK it may be not.

• There is a strong FOSS ethos around Monero, but you don't have to. You can use websites to swap if you want. Onion sites and no-javascript are common as well.
• Bitcoin would have the same issues. You have to download an app or use a website to get it.
• Didn't you just say 99% don't care about these things? They download apps without even thinking about it. Just saying.

Why should I look at that list 'just' to pay in Monero when I can pay at 'more' locations in Bitcoin?

• You don't have to do anything. I'm just showing you places you can use Monero because you brought up the subject and it's much more than what you made it seem. NymVPN just went public and Monero is the only other crypto it accepts besides Bitcoin. But I don't understand why you would simply pretend they don't exist or intentionally remain ignorant about it now that you know. You also act as if the average Joe on the street knows everywhere that accepts Bitcoin. We're all in a niche space here.

And if you're buying gift cards to use at the grocery then... why the cloak and dagger privacy anyway?

• The only reason I can think of is if you already have some and don't want to convert it back to fiat. But I'm also in agreement with what you're saying. Why not just forgoe both Monero/Lightning and use cash/digital fiat for those purchases?

...Following the rules of a 'central authority' is a grey area

• It is not. White market transactions are quite literally following rules of a central authority. If you're not doing that, then it is black market by definition.

...because while cryptocurrencies can circumvent the rules they will never 'replace' the rules...

Correct. Cryptocurrencies cannot circumvent rules on the white market. They can only do that on black markets.