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I'd just been getting around to reading this Bitcoin Tech Talk's Bitcoin Fundamentals Series, when I came across this section in part 3
One of the fundamental questions regarding property is that between property and sovereignty, which comes first?
Some influential thinkers, such as Harrington & Locke, believed that property predated sovereignty. They believed humans intuitively understand property, even without the existence of a state.
To them the primary function of a state is to protect property rights. A sovereign state is judged on its merits to fulfill this responsibility. Locke went further and stated that individuals have the right to rebel against the state if it fails in its duty to preserve property rights. Adam Smith, the father of capitalism and modern economics, had a similar view. Smith recognized that property and government were dependent on each other, and argued that “civil government could not exist without property, as its main function is to safeguard property ownership”. (Smith differed with Locke, however, on whether property rights are “natural” — he believed property rights are “acquired” rights, not “natural” rights).
In contrast, other thinkers, most prominently Hobbes, believed it was the opposite, that property is a creation of the state. He regarded property simply as the product of authority and the acceptance of that authority.
I guess most free-market capitalists would scoff at the idea that property rights are acquired. At least, to speak for myself, I had taken this for granted until just now. For such an old debate, can we safely assume we've gotten it all worked out?
Disclaimer I'm not a socialist. My world view happens to be that man are stewards with the responsibility to tend to the material things. For efficiency sake, it makes sense to me to preserve property. But is it 'natural' that mine should be mine and not yours?
Does "everyone really get bitcoin at the price they deserve?"
Is it 'natural' for someone who came across bitcoin in the early 2010s that they should be so much farther ahead than class of 2020? Of course, it's much easier to say "you get it at the price you deserve" for those who got in early and didn't sell (not saying this was easy). But is that also to say that for those who didn't get it, they didn't deserve it?
My personal take - at least, my belief - is that perhaps you had to know what you were looking at and this took some level of self-determination. However, "everyone gets bitcoin at the price they deserve," seems like a meme that really discredits the amount that chance (or call it fate, luck, providence, or God's favour) actually played.
Property rights are a lot more subjective than many people claim to be. Some are quite clear, like if you have a hammer, it's yours and you own it and control it and can do anything with it. On the other end of the spectrum you can have a right to a part of the radio spectrum. You "own" specific frequency range (with specific transmission parameters). In that case what is it exactly the thing that you "own"?
And then we can get to cases that are close to reality. If you own a land and have built a structure in it, do you have a right to build a well? If you live in some place and you and people around you have wells and don't deplete the aquifer there is no conflict. But what happens if after decades of living there new people come and build houses and build their own wells and suddenly the water is not enough for all? Should the new owners be made to use less water? Should the existing owners be forced to use less water then before, so that everybody gets the proportional quantity of water? What about the case where due to change in the climate suddenly there is not enough water? How should the remaining water be split and who owns it?
Also what about building a tall structure that casts shadow on your neighbour's property? What if it was there before your neighbour acquired his property? Does who came first make a difference? That if someone blocks a convenient path you have been using fo 50 years because he acquired the land (even if you have an inconvenient alternative path to your property)?
What about a part of the river running through your property having a dam constructed a thousand kilometers upstream?
What about painting your house a nasty color that ruins the experience of your neighbour? What about painting an image some will find offensive on your wall? What about painting a child porn "art" on the wall of your house? Does this violate your neighbour's property rights?
Fairness in property rights are full of cases that are not clear cut. And some of the cases above although fictional are similar to a real cases in the real world.
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You've provided an interesting framing. Reminds me of how money is unjustly debated by the powers of the state apparatus.
I like what was said here #932907 about rights being somewhat problematic a term. In any case, I guess the fundamental most important right is that of being able to own and use one's own property without that property being unjustly infringed on.
Importantly, what I think lots of bitcoiners have in common (probably most people if you really got to know them) is that they dont believe the enforcement of their right to their money is 'aquired' by being party to a civilization that can protect you if that right becomes threatened.
In other words, my right to own bitcoin is 'natural' in the sense it doesn't require the state to intervene except (maybe) in edge cases.
Hobbes, Locke et al. didn't yet know about programmatically enforced property rights.
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Hm... Do these "edge cases" include getting scammed for example?
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Being scammed is just another word for fraud, which is a type of theft. The scammer essentially entered into a contract in bad faith, which nullifies the validity of the contract in the first place.
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Probably not. Maybe if someone robs you of your bitcoin by force, but I don't think we're a the point where you have much legal recourse in either case.
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Practice has proven that today scamming someone is easier and more profitable than using force. This is amplified by the fact that almost no victim believes in advance that is vulnerable to scams. But nevertheless you have legal recource should you know who the offender is. The offender can be sentenced to return the money at least and made to do so by using the state's violence apparatus actually.
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The concept of ownership/property is an artificial, human construct. It goes with the man made construct of the state and the struggle for control of territory and resources that humans engage in. The struggle for control of energy and resources is as old as DNA.
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I did not hear of Bitcoin until 2017- a geek friend told me about it and I was pretty much instantly fascinated and dived into it- even getting briefly interested in shitcoins but fairly swiftly coming back to Bitcoin as the only one of value.
Why was I instantly attracted to Bitcoin? Because after a life of being interested in economics, politics, business and current events I had already come to see the status quo western financial system as corrupt and needing change. The GFC led to the Occupy Wall st protests and we had them here too In NZ- which I participated in- but the feeling from that time was that peaceful protests on the streets were not going to deliver the change and accountability that was required- the bankers just sat back in their strongholds and laughed, and the law enforcement backed them.
So when Bitcoin was revealed to be an alternative, decentralised monetary system that was not controlled nor could be manipulated by any banker or government I was in. I did not expect it to grow in value the way it has but was simply happy to be able to hold my hard earned savings in a form that was directly under my control and free of rentseeking parasitic bankers and governments.
So the meme about getting Bitcoin at the price you deserve is imo a broad generalisation based on the willingness of anyone to choose an alternative to the corrupt fiat system- most people have never questioned the fiat monetary system and many who have would nevertheless stick with it because it has the stamp of authority and established power behind it.
Only buy Bitcoin if you want to be part of the peaceful revolution building an alternative monetary system to the fiat debt slavery bankers cartel that owns your government.
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Does "everyone really get bitcoin at the price they deserve?"
Of course not, it's just an occasionally useful expression. All models are wrong, but some models are useful.

On private property, I think the Hoppean view is the most sophisticated secular view. In brief, this view is that something like Lockean homesteading and property rights are the only system consistent with non-violent dispute resolution.
That makes this a consequentialist view: private property "rights" are what peaceful people must logically support. "Rights" then is more of a shorthand for a covenant between people who share a desired end (non-violent dispute resolution).
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"Rights" then is more of a shorthand for a covenant between people who share a desired end (non-violent dispute resolution).
Right. So, do you think looking at rights as either natural or acquired is somewhat of a false dichotomy?
It sounds like what the article is referring to as 'natural' are those afforded us by Nature, in the transcendentalist sense of 'I have the right to my own person i.e. not to be assaulted by you.' On the other hand, the author writes that Hobbes claimed, "property is a creation of the state."
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I think "rights" is sort of the wrong concept. It's hard to get there without running afoul of the Naturalistic Fallacy.
It makes more sense to ground it in something people desire, like peaceful coexistence. People who don't value that and won't follow those rules can find somewhere else to live.
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follow those rules
That's a good point.
Aside from observing the obvious property rights and maintaining a semblence of peaceful coexistence, there's probably a standard of virtues that a society ought to follow.
I'd recently heard of a man (in Canada) completely on government dole-outs, six children, and a wife pregnant with a seventh and has nothing to say for it other than inshallah In this case, allowing him to lead this lifestyle provided he peacefully coexists and plays along is probably much too tolerant enforcement of 'rules.' But it's certainly happening and that's far from an isolated case.
Really feels antithetical to a prosperous society...
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allowing him to lead this lifestyle provided he peacefully coexists
Someone is violently coexisting to enable that lifestyle, though. I don't generally blame the recipients of welfare programs for taking the money, but the state took it from someone else in a non-peaceful manner. Absent that, the lifestyle wouldn't be feasible and we don't have to worry about people aspiring to it.
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I'm with you.
Absent that, the lifestyle wouldn't be feasible
Unfortunately, I don't think we get there without a shared set of ethical principles regarding individuals' rights and freedoms,
These are being eroded day by day in this country.
Natural
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I think I figured out a better way of framing my gripe.
My right over property may not be natural in the sense that a force in nature can sweep it all away leaving me with nothing - IOW, it can be untied by forces other than ill-meaning humans.
However, my right to live peacefully on and to use my own property without unjust interference is, probably, natural, because no earthly creature has a better claim to what is mine.
Now, I haven't entirely worked out what happens if an alien civilization comes and lays its claim to my bitcoin through some unknowable power. In this case, perhaps, I will reconsider what is natural
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