Is the America Getting Ripped Off? \ stacker news ~econ

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844 sats \ 20 comments \ @kepford 7 Apr econ

Trump is trying to sell a victim narrative and I don't buy it.

Trump repeats a troupe that I find hard to swallow. The US is getting ripped off. When he says this, as far as I can tell he's not referring to the people. He's referring the US government getting ripped off by other nations. This is so absurd I'm surprised I don't hear more people push back on it.

The US is the most powerful government in the history of the planet. No nation has the firepower or wealth of the US. The US has manipulated the governments and policies of much of the world since WW2. The idea that the US government is getting ripped off is absurd.

Trump and I agree that NATO is obsolete. It was created to counter a government that dissolved in the 90s. This should be an example to everyone that governments do not behave like businesses. They do not respond to market forces. They will always seek to increase their power and influence and always resist any efforts to reduce their size and scope. But back to Trump. He says that the US is getting ripped off by the other NATO countries. I would say the US people are in indeed being ripped off by their own government. But the US government is NOT getting ripped off.

The US military power in Europe is a massive influence on geopolitics in the region. US military companies benefit massively as well. The US military has bases all over the globe and if you don't think that is a factor in "diplomatic" negotiations you are being naive. The US uses this "defensive" shield to keep the "leaders" of Europe in line. The US isn't being ripped off. This is just a marketing tactic Trump is using to sell downsizing the US military deployments.

Trump also loves to point out how other countries are imposing tariffs on the US. We are being ripped off! I mean, he has a point there. But if tariffs aren't a tax as many in his admin like to claim, how exactly are "we" being ripped off? We are being told that Trump's tariff policy isn't a tax and that expecting prices to increase is oversimplifying things. The talk about tariffs is frankly frustrating.

On the one hand the left is saying tariffs are a tax and is going to drive up prices. Yet these same people pretend to not understand that corporate tax increases don't have the same effect. The right claims to understand tax policy and often oppose corporate taxes. They will tell you that those taxes just get passed down to consumers in the form of price increases. Now they are pretending to not get this in relation to tariffs.

I've read and listened to the pro tariff people and they aren't all dumb. They may be right about tariffs not effecting all products and nations equally. I guess we will find out. But, can we be honest? The US is not getting ripped off.

Someone is getting ripped off, but it isn't the US federal government. Its the people of the world. First, the people of the world live under the thumb of the US fiat dollar standard. We in the US complain about 3+% inflation but most people in the world would kill for that level of inflation. Most of the world gets none of supposed benefits from government spending. They only get the debasement of their own currencies.

Moving away from economics, the entire globe is affected by the elections in the US. The US is the top dog government and its decisions effect people everywhere. The US deep state has manipulated many elections across the globe and continues to do so. Meanwhile we are told that Russia is manipulating our elections. So who exactly is getting ripped off here? I think the nation (the people) are being subjected to massive mismanagement at best. I can support that argument.

Don't get me wrong... I know we in the US are getting ripped off. We are being ruled by people that do not represent us and do not answer to us. The politicians that claim to represent us are being paid and influenced by foreign groups ranging from Israeli political groups, to any number of other groups domestic and foreign. We are getting ripped off, but I firmly believe the people in the US have it better than most of the world. Trump is trying to sell a victim narrative and I don't buy it.

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168 sats \ 9 replies \ @SimpleStacker 7 Apr

Well, certain parts of the country, and that includes Trump's base, really were affected negatively by China trade.

The impact is so well known and studied in the economics literature that we have a name for it, the "China shock."

It's been demonstrated that counties whose economies were more threatened by Chinese imports ended up having higher unemployment, depression, suicide, drug use, etc. after China joined the WTO.

Sadly, the main response from neoliberals has been "learn to code"... which even though it's kinda true... it's also a bit heartless and ignorant of reality to make it so simple.

Right now, I wanna tell all the federal workers getting laid off, and all the journalists to learn to code too.

But my point is that certain parts of the country were really hurt by trade.

My problem with Trump's tariffs isn't even the tariffs themselves, it's the haphazard way that they're being executed... and honestly if he keeps going down this path I think Gavin Newsom is gonna be the next president.

7 sats \ 8 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Apr

hurt by trade

This is different than "being ripped off". I worked in a factory job in the early 2000s that was off-shored to China. I'm well aware of the affects of globalization. I also realize we aren't talking about purely "free trade" here. I just point the finger at the politicians not China or whoever per se.

37 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Apr

Oh, and I did learn to code... long before that became a meme. One thing free market people like myself often discount is that the market can be brutal. It has no morals or feelings. For people nearing the end of their working lives drastic market shifts can be incredibly hard. I'll just end with this. The US is its own worst enemy. The US gov does far more damage to itself than any other government.

42 sats \ 6 replies \ @SimpleStacker 8 Apr

What do you think should have been done for the communities affected by the China trade shock, if anything?

I do wonder if welfare policies just kept people in their state of despair.

One thing I think a lot of the management class doesn't understand is that you can't just solve problems by giving people money. People need to feel a sense of pride in their own work.

52 sats \ 5 replies \ @kepford OP 8 Apr

Honestly, I don't know. I can tell you the government didn't do nothing. There were programs that paid for college education if you lost your job due to off-shoring. I used one to pay for 2 years of community college. I was one of a few that actually used it. Most of the people I knew in the factory had zero interest in a career shift. A few did though. Some were even older dudes.

Most of the people I worked with just found jobs in other factories or other blue collar jobs. Some took early retirement. Its not like the area I was in was booming and then cratered though. Its not like the rust belt in that way.

I hated working in a factory anyway so I was looking for a way out anyway. It was just a job that put food on the table while I figured out life. It was dirty hard work. I don't miss it but for many it was all they knew.

IMO the US shot itself in the foot with over-regulation, over-taxation, and fiat money printing. It wasn't just "free-trade" with China that did this. Of course the cost difference in labor was a massive factor and maybe even the biggest factor, it wasn't the only one.

When it was announced I was working in the QA area and heard the old times inspecting the product coming from the Chinese factory and it was better quality and much lower in cost to produce. Those guys didn't say this stuff very loudly. I remember hearing guys complain about the outsourcing but also being very pro-union. It was a union shop and I think unions played a role as well.

What Americans do not want to admit is that many of us simply are not as hungry and willing to work as those from poverty. Of course there are plenty of Americans that would out work anyone but I can tell you in my time in the factories (worked at several) there were plenty of deadbeats that milked the union job dry. Many of these guys railed about their jobs being stolen by foreigners and after a while it just go so old to me.

Today I see this in tech/IT with foreign workers being more hungry. But I also see it in guys that come from blue collar backgrounds switching to coding. They will often out work the tech bros.

66 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 8 Apr

While offshoring and competition definitely effected factors jobs...

They say that automation effected them even more. The 'peak' number of factory jobs was in the 1970s before the number of jobs dropped. Well before China entered the WTO so it wasn't just overseas competition.

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45 sats \ 2 replies \ @crenshaw 8 Apr

What Americans do not want to admit is that many of us simply are not as hungry and willing to work as those from poverty

The "we need to suffer some pain" narrative some Americans are touting now also shows how completely divorced many people are from the experience of actual hunger and poverty. The wealthy, of course, don't have to worry about this. What's sad is some people who actually could suffer are buying into this romanticized narrative that the pain will be worth it for them.

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131 sats \ 1 reply \ @000w2 8 Apr

I think the main reason is not discussed either..

Why does the US have a massive trade deficit? Because the dollar is too strong, imports are cheap, exports are expensive.

Why is the dollar too strong? Because the US insists on it being the world reserve currency and regime-changes countries that try to exit the dollar system.

Why do they want it to be the world reserve currency? Because it gives them leverage over other countries and ensures trade surplus countries fund the US gov with their surpluses.

Framing the US as a victim is absurd. Exporting dollars you can print for free and getting real goods in return is the opposite of being scammed, the US is the scammer!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 8 Apr

Indeed. Well said

54 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined 7 Apr

In the mind of a collectivist like Trump, it makes sense to think of America as an entity capable of being ripped off. He's not thinking of the government, specifically, or the people. It's all just one big blob.

Now, I do think he has a very poor understanding of trade, but I can also make a charitable argument out of his position. He's clearly objecting strongly to all of the protectionist non-tariff trade barriers that other countries erect, largely to be competitive against American producers. We're seeing it over and over in the news right now, as foreign leaders make their fake "0 tariff" offers that the media runs with.

In that context, it's both American businesses and the government that are being "ripped off". Although, that's not the phrase I would use. The businesses are being ripped off, by limiting their access to markets in ways their counterparts aren't restricted from the US. The Feds are being ripped off because they've been duped into adopting lower tariffs, by foreign leaders pretending to have similarly low trade barriers, which leads to less revenue than symmetrical trade restrictions would.

Of course, you're right that the people really being ripped off are all the regular peaceful people being expropriated by the state (doesn't matter which nation's).

37 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 8 Apr

It's all just one big blob

This in my opinion is the dominate view even within republican voters.

Country, Nation, and government (state) are all used interchangeably.

28 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 8 Apr

the people really being ripped off are all the regular peaceful people being expropriated by the state (doesn't matter which nation's)

Yes, and my point is that people outside the US are getting it worse than we are due to the dollar and the Fed. I just get sick of hearing Americans complain when we are the empire with the most wealth. I mean, we should complain about the state but we do have it far better than most of the world.

35 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 8 Apr

yep yep yep

43 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 8 Apr

Trump thinks... that the tariffs should be there to reduce the 'trade deficit' to zero. So trade is basically balanced. That is entirely different to saying that countries need to 'remove their tariffs'.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 7 Apr

Trump is dealing with the fact that the US can not any longer sustain the chronic trade and fiscal deficits it has 'enjoyed' for decades. You cannot take more than you give indefinitely. Eventually the debt collectors sharpen their knives and demand austerity. The tariffs are a swift, crude and in the short term, effective means of maintaining the solvency of a declining empire when US voters are not yet ready to accept reality. Give it time.

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 7 Apr

Oh, I'm giving it time. The sky is not falling and I'm not shocked. Gonna be interesting to watch it unfold. I think we are headed into a recession this year and hopefully a rip roaring econ in 2026.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 7 Apr

Plan for the worst but hope for the best!