Could omitting LN transactions from L1 be a problem in the future?
1 sat \ 4 comments \ @MadJewel 26 Nov 2022 bitcoin
So, I know a couple who are a big BSV fan (CSW worshipping and all) and I'm having a very long arguments with them over chat (friendly, we know IRL thou they live in a different country). These arguments and debates made me really look into BSV talking points (I'm very open minded), and while most of them are rubbish, I just saw this post on BSV space on reddit, and it suddenly made me think -
I got really pumped and re-hooked into the lightning space and possibilities lately after not checking in on it since it started pretty much, and I'm having a blast learning and trying out the new developments and envisioning the future, but isn't this a problem that some applications not being on the blockchain?
one word CSW and his followers keep saying is "data" - now admittedly I'm not so "techy", but I wonder how do you stream or store data using LN without keeping it permanent on some ledger? Is this when layer 3 come in play? or just each organization/company/website uses a centralized old-school system, with LN transactions just being the "lube"? (like what's going on now i guess?) insights are welcome, 'cause I got myself confused
write
preview
related posts
1 sat \ 1 reply \ @timechain 26 Nov 2022
TLDR- BSV storing data is not special because BSV runs on big data servers anyway. Conventional data servers store data better than BSV, and since BSV is censorable, it offers no benefits in storing data over the conventional data servers.
--------‐
In general, data is considered unable to be stored on a decentralized blockchain. The decisions BSVers have made to make their blockchain store data has ensured a normal user is unable to keep a copy of the ledger on a computer, let alone a raspi. This results in the chain not being decentralized enough to be resistant to censorship. To this, CSW tries to rewrite history by claiming Bitcoin wasnt ever intended to be any of these things. (Decentralized or invulnerable to state attack.)
One can, however produce a hash of any file and store that hash on the blockchain, so one can be cryptographicaly sure any given file is the file you are looking for, unaltered. This does not solve the problem that you are still getting your data from central servers, but the BSV blockchain is so large, they have indeed become central servers anyway.
A couple interesting projects are Impervious and Vida, using LN as a way to open up a peer to peer, end to end encrypted channel, but storing data is not the goal there.
Bitcoiners, honest to the concept that blockchains cannot store data at any scaleable level while remaining decentralized, have looked to other types of structures which may anchor to Bitcoin's blockchain to make the sharing of data and communication keep the ethos of Bitcoin; uncensorable, unstoppable, trust minimized, etc...
There is a wave of products that are using torrent-esque swarming by peers to truly make P2P filesharing a thing. Keet and Holepunch by Hypercore and the Tether guys are some of the players putting it together.
Dorsey's Web 5 is another p2p web idea using Decentralized Web Nodes (small self hosted servers) and Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs, which are put on the Bitcoin blockchain, based on Microsofts Ion, which also uses the InterPlanetary File System IPFS). Zion, using Web5, is a social media project which uses folk's LN nodes as data servers.
Fiatjaf's Nostr is another approach, not peer to peer, but using cryptographic keys to be censorship and tamper resistant.
I know that may be a "coming soon" type answer, but just like we see the effects of Ethereum's block size leading to where we are today; that most blocks are OFAC compliant, such is the fate of BSV. Blockchains are a tank, not a sportscar. When you make trade-offs to make your tank go fast, before you know it, its not bulletproof anymore. You end up with something that sucks at being a tank and at being a sports car. BSV sucks at being censorship resistant payments, and sucks at being AWS.
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @MadJewel OP 26 Nov 2022
Thank You, that gave me a lot to think about and research.
reply
0 sats \ 1 reply \ @muteness11 26 Nov 2022
"sometimes, the best way to win an argument is to AVOID it" Dale Carnegie
Look at the facts (not opinions), where is BSV and where is BTC now? the market decided which one is better
you said it at the end "I got myself confused" ... so read the first 3 chapters of mastering lightning and you will have a much better understanding
reply
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @MadJewel OP 26 Nov 2022
i'm very confident in my stance, and as for me i consider this argument won regardless. That being said, there is a specific question that came to my mind that I would like some insights on. being confused is no strange feeling in the bitcoin space, and I'm not going to run away from it just 'cause its easier. The problem here for me is that I don't have the tools to formulate my question in a more technical or accurate term, since my understanding of bitcoin is intuitive (albeit above average)
reply