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Need Feedback from my Stackers: Should I spend Bitcoin on a Car?
379 sats \ 20 comments \ @028559d218 17h bitcoin
I saw there was a new "Car Talk" territory (which is amazing) but this wasn't specifically about "cars" per se.
I have nowhere the Sats that most of you do... but regardless I have been stacking for a few years now, I have spent hundreds of hours studying Bitcoin and I love it. I think Bitcoin has a very bright future, with eventual mass adoption to occur over the next 30 years, and I believe the BTC/USD exchange rate will gradually increase over time.
There is no way to know 'when' and 'how' it will increase... it will be volatile for sure but Bitcoin is unique with IMO no competition and eventually everyone will want it. (Demand will be very high).
I have spent Bitcoin, in person, in multiple countries to prove to myself that Lightning actually works - on coffee, beer, a glass of wine, some mussels etc - and I am extremely positive on Lightning overall in the coming decade. Lightning "scales" Bitcoin big-time ignore what the ****coiners say they are wrong.
And Lightning IMO strikes a good balance between on-chain and off-chain scalability... the educational/UI challenges will eventually be worked out because it's still new.
I also believe that eventually Lightning will hit YOUTUBE in a BIG way, perhaps in the next 10 years, and people will LOVE it. Creators, commenters, even advertisers, will leverage Lightning for "content rewards" or tipping and the Stacker News version of "tipping" by users all across Youtube will be relatively common.
People may not even realize that "it's bitcoin"... just that they're sending SATS or BITS and they will LOVE IT when they receive SATS+BITS for their hard-created content.
In short... I believe that Bitcoin is a great bet on the future. It's great to save in, is ethically, technically, and economically sound enough for the Internet in general and has basically no competition.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So...
now what???
If I believe that Bitcoin will be "more valuable" in the future (there is only SO MUCH Bitcoin to ever exist) then spending more than a small percentage of my Bitcoin savings is illogical. Spending Bitcoin to help further "adoption" is GOOD.
Spending Bitcoin to prove to myself that "lightning works" is really important so I can separate fact from fiction... and I have been to Steak n Shake a few times to prove definitively TO MYSELF that Lightning works.
Non-custodial, from my own node, using 'private' Bitcoin... I've tried it together to buy some fries and although there are UI/UX challenges it fundamentally works the technology is demonstrable.
Fantastic!!!
So now what?
If I think that Bitcoin will 'go up' over the next decade, why should I spend it? And if I do spend it...
Should I feel guilty? Should I feel that I am sacrificing "future me" to satisfy "short term-immediate me?"
Hypothetically my Bitcoin could be valuable enough one day to purchase a small sports car (I have never had one). Assuming I look for places to spend the Bitcoin "directly" to buy one and there aren't any I'm comfortable with...
I have to sell some Bitcoin for some Filthy Fiat (FF) and take said Filthy Fiat (FF) to a dealership and spend it to buy a car.
Assuming this was a car for UTILITY it would be a different story. But a sports-car is for FUN purely. It's not "needed".
So is it wrong???
I've asked a friend of mine and he suggested I just rent a similar vehicle. I asked another and he suggested financing... so I don't have to sell Sats for Filthy Fiat (FF) as I don't like Filthy Fiat (FF) anyway.
Another suggested I forget this whole thing because it's a waste of money.
Focus on the fundamentals he says... there's time for this later (he knows I'm in my mid-thirties so there's time "later").
What do the Stackers think?
I wouldn't be the 1st Bitcoiner to sell Sats for FF (the Paper Stuff) and buy a car. I don't like Filthy Fiat I generally like Lightning much better.
But it will take another 10 years in my opinion to see the 'next level' of Bitcoin adoption.
And other 30 before Bitcoin is the World Reserve Currency which I believe it has a good chance of becoming.
What do I do???
write
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @optimism 10h
Yes, because you should earn more bitcoin than you spend. Just like you should earn more fiat than you spend.
If bitcoin is money, and I'd pose it is, then what else are you going to spend? Its just the medium.
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100 sats \ 6 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
There is no way I've seen to spend the Bitcoin 'directly'... so I have to go through filthy fiat first. In other words sell the Bitcoin (a better asset) for Dollars (a weaker asset) which I really don't want to do.
It's a bad trade period, Human consumption needs aside.
Then there's what Bitcoin is 'worth'. Last Nov I postulated that it's worth 400-600K today #765426 and I stand by that.
Why trade a revolutionary thing for plain old dollars that can be printed out of thin air... it doesn't make sense right?
Then there is the reality that as you add mileage to a car its value goes down. That doesn't mean 'don't have fun' and don't drive one... but when you drive a car off the lot it depreciates most of the time.
On top of that there's cap gains taxes. Liquidating enough Bitcoin to buy a car? That's not exactly buying a coffee. We need more education on this issue.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @optimism 3h
I'm not sure about all that. If you need to do an intermediate step to buy your car with sats, that does not at all change the decision to do it? It just makes it a little more involved.
A car isn't an investment if you actually intend to use it; it's a tool. Here's the real test: do you need a car? If no, then don't buy it. If yes, then buy it. It doesn't matter that you saddle your vendor with dollarshitcoins. All that matters is: do you need that car?
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100 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
Need? No. It's a small sportscar. Enjoy? Yes.
At this point I'm leaning towards waiting 10 years to reevaluate.
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50 sats \ 3 replies \ @optimism 3h
Gotta live a little, but those are also things we're most likely to regret. I'm with you on letting it be for a while.
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100 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
There were/are people who bought cars and crap in 2015. They had that much Bitcoin to be able to spend 10s of thousands worth because 'they could'.
But today? I think most of those people regret it. Some have enough they don't care but most I think wish they had waited.
Thanks for feedback from the Stackers.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Daedalus 7h
In terms of cashflow (ignoring ridiculous U.S. tax laws), it's identical to spend x amount of usd in btc in one transaction vs x amount in plain usd since you create an equal value opportunity cost. Thinking that sats are only earmarked for savings, and fiat is only earmarked for spending is illogical when both are extremely easy to trade for each other.
This thinking drastically reduces bitcoin adoption and contributes to a HODL culture that ensures bitcoin is not a threat.
In short, if you buy a car for $5k it doesn't matter if you spend sats or dollars, you still spent $5k on a car. In both cases you lose out on the opportunity cost of $5k worth of bitcoin at time of purchase.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 4h
It's the opportunity cost, I think, that's so expensive... as opposed to the car purchase itself.
The opportunity cost may be over the next 10 years more expensive than the car itself.
Thank you for your input.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bitcoiner1 11h
An average car is always a bad investment. A sport car is even worst unless it's a classic car and it can store some value.
You already know that it's a bad financial decisions, but what about your feelings and doing what you enjoy???
Renting a similar car for a couple of months would be a good idea, so you have time to enjoy the car and get tired of it.
Also, if you're receiving more fiat from your work, maybe get a loan to access the fiat. No need to sell your stack.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
Thank you for your comment.
Yes I am also thinking I don't want to sell the stack... it took me a couple years of stacking and weekly DCA to build it and the exchange rate was lower then...
I don't want to give that up right? 21 million Bitcoin for the next 100 years. And how many cars?
I will look into renting. Sure I will have to divert some of my excess cash/flow/would be able to stack less in that same time period... but there's way less opportunity cost.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @RideandSmile 13h
If you can affort (enough spare btc ), go for it
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
How much is enough? I don't have much btc to begin with :( at least my today's standards :( and people say 'you never have enough' to begin with anyway.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @unboiled 15h
Would your stance change if the car dealer accepted bitcoin? And what if they were likely to keep the bitcoin to spend it themselves? What if your buying with btc made them consider the option to keep more on their books in future?
The need vs want consideration may get a new dimension depending on your answers to the above questions.
Ignoring the btc adoption considerations, it's a pretty straight forward process for me: Will spending the money on a toy hurt my future self's finances? And will I get more joy out of it today than in x years where I can get the same (or better) for less?
Now, if I were to drive adoption with my purchase, it would carry some degree of utility forward in time even though the object I am buying has little to none. We need more adoption and a stronger circular btc economy today, not in 30 years.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 15h
Would your stance change if the car dealer accepted bitcoin? And what if they were likely to keep the bitcoin to spend it themselves? What if your buying with btc made them consider the option to keep more on their books in future?
It would help because the increased adoption would be a net positive. that's why i mentioned testing out lighting... as i have. using bitcoin even on coffee is great for adoption and pays huge 'adoption dividends.' So 'paying with bitcoin' is like paying less... because it helps help people become educated / makes the network stronger.
Will spending the money on a toy hurt my future self's finances?
Probably. Short term? No way to know. Long term? Probably.
And will I get more joy out of it today than in x years where I can get the same (or better) for less?
Yes. However humans don't have an infinite amount of time (so they spend/consume regardless).
Now, if I were to drive adoption with my purchase, it would carry some degree of utility forward in time even though the object I am buying has little to none.
Agreed
We need more adoption and a stronger circular btc economy today, not in 30 years.
The education isn't there. The 'general public' has heard of bitcoin... but do they know how it works or how to spend it? No. They have no idea.
Even the 'finance' people who write articles or critique Bitcoin and know it exists have no idea how to use it. They never mention lightning or sites like stacker news.
The level of knowledge among stackers is extremely niche
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @unboiled 15h
The education isn't there. The 'general public' has heard of bitcoin... but do they know how it works or how to spend it? No. They have no idea.
People didn't know how an economy works before spending fiat money. They did so because others around them did.
My stance is that we can do the same with bitcoin. Getting started is not as hard as we make it out to be.
Even the 'finance' people who write articles or critique Bitcoin and know it exists have no idea how to use it. They never mention lightning or sites like stacker news.
I think the people you are referring to are writing it with a very specific goal in mind: to discredit bitcoin.
As for their reasons to do so, I can only hazard a few guesses. Frequently, taking that stance will buy them social credit in the circles they've invested their career in. They're not writing for everyone, they're writing to be seen by their superiors who can help them get their next promotion.
The level of knowledge among stackers is extremely niche
It feels that way, but I am not so sure. There is more curiosity in the 'general population' out there than I would have thought.
The level of openly showing you're in favor of bitcoin is niche, but more and more people seem to get that there is something going on, and it's not matching the narrative of the anti-bitcoiners.
Part of it, I think, is a lot of bitcoiners are private about it to protect themselves not only from wrench attacks, but also from social ostracization.
But the encouraging bit is how many of my non-bitcoiner friends (the vast majority) are starting to understand that the anti-bitcoin narratives are exactly that: just a narrative spun to make it look bad for the environment, social cohesion, or what have you.
In my opinion, non-stackers were just fed the lies first before they got around to find out more about it from a neutral place. It needs time for the lies to expose themselves. What also helps is having a trusted friend to tell them to take a second look; it isn't what they have been told it is.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 3h
My stance is that we can do the same with bitcoin. Getting started is not as hard as we make it out to be.
I love buying coffee with Lightning... I wish there were more places to do it.
They're not writing for everyone, they're writing to be seen by their superiors who can help them get their next promotion.
+1
It feels that way, but I am not so sure. There is more curiosity in the 'general population' out there than I would have thought. The level of openly showing you're in favor of bitcoin is niche, but more and more people seem to get that there is something going on, and it's not matching the narrative of the anti-bitcoiners.
Stacker News is still a HUGE bubble.
I have been unable to 'orange pill' anyone. Maybe one person but that's only because he's seen the price go up the last year? I don't think he really appreciates the fundamentals yet.
If Bitcoin were down 50% tomorrow I would keep buying it because I think it has a bright (orange) future. But I don't know anyone else like that.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @3a42879d5f 16h
I've never regretted buying Bitcoin. I've only regretted selling.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 15h
Real straight talk from stackers. Never sold Bitcoin before so i don't know what it's like/feels like. Appreciated.
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