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1100 sats \ 5 replies \ @252 21 Aug \ parent \ on: What is PROPERTY? BooksAndArticles
I was born and raised in Somalia, so I witnessed firsthand that life can function with little to no state.
When the state collapsed in 1991, everything related to governance fell apart completely. You could find machine guns everywhere, sometimes for free, and even tanks if you wanted.
The first five years were absolute chaos, especially in the main cities, because society went from 100% state control to almost none.
But by the late ’90s and early 2000s, in the city where I grew up, life actually became better than in many places with functioning states.
There was almost no centralized administration, yet the city had one of the best telecommunications networks, excellent doctors, good schools, and remarkable peace. People could walk around with thousands of dollars without fear of robbery, and the high level of freedom.
I am not saying everything was 100% perfect but the lesson learned is that societies, tribes, and individuals can govern themselves and provide state services through private businesses. But the main weakness was that people didn’t have plan for stopping outside interventions, which eventually destroyed and gave rise the current situation.
Yes in Somalia in the lack of a centralised internationally recognised government people reverted to operating under traditional clan based common law and Sharia Courts also became powerful.
The problem was if you were a member of a small less powerful clan and had a dispute with someone from a more powerful one.
And as you note it left all Somalia open to and vulnerable to outside intervention many led by US agencies who disliked the proliferation of what they saw as support and security for terrorist Islamic organisations.
You do not mention where you reside now but clearly it is not Somalia - the state of confusion and tension between the government eventually installed in some parts and continued warring for control by multiple factions goes on.
Any devoted advocate of Libertarian principles is welcome to go live in Somalia and experience life under clan based and Sharia law- but fuck all if any ever have because for most rational people it would be an utter shithole to live in if you had the option of instead moving to somewhere with stable government and consistent rule of law not dependent upon which family, clan or religion you belong to.
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i understand now why you love governments so much @Solomonsatoshi, its because you think you know everything better than anyone, no matter how close to the thing they are. its a match made in heaven and explains everything very clearly.
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Are you not curious as to why @252 left Somalia and where they moved to?
Is it somewhere there is a stable government and rule of law by chance?
Or did they relocate to another haven for pirates and terrorists?
Do any Libertarians live in Somalia under clan and Sharia law?
Maybe you are planning to relocate there since you hate all governments so much?
If not why not?
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I was talking about a specific period of time (1995–2005) and the city where I grew up, which had a population of more than 200k. During those years, there were no Islamic/Sharia courts, no warlords, and no terrorism. There was only minimal/very limited “administration,” and even that was local to the city.
Yes, some clans were larger and others smaller, but in those 10 years there were no major disputes.
Besides your insult, many non Somalis also lived there peacefully during that period including my teachers.
My point is that this particular time and place could be case study of no centralized state.
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Yes there was no centralised state but there were at a clan and community level the reintroduction of clan based common laws and depending upon which clan you belonged to your access to property rights and justice varied.
You claim to have grown up there but provide no evidence- it could be a claim made out of convenience given the lack of historical examples of any successful economy ever existing in the absence of government and the fondness of some libertarians to reference this era in Somalia despite the appalling conditions most Somalia live under.
Why did you leave and where did you move to? You refuse to answer this too.
I suggest you are a fabrication and cannot and will not substantiate your claims.
You give no examples of any Libertarians who moved to Somalia to enjoy the experiment in non centralised government which was unfolding- because Libertarians are big on talk but not so much on action.
They like most people depend upon the stability and security that governments deliver and do not in reality want to be thrown into a clan based Sharia Law state of anarchy.
The fact is the predominance of Sharia law and absence of other centralised authority made Somalia an attractive place for Muslim extremists, pirates and terrorists and such a state was not tolerated by other nations who eventually put in place the current nominal centralised government.
Nobody or area lives in sufficient isolation to neighbouring jurisdictions to harbour pirates and terrorists and believe that is acceptable.
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