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278 sats \ 20 replies \ @mtk4000 14h \ parent \ on: Nodeless on Spark | Waitlist is now open ⚡️ bitcoin
That article is way too long. Is there a succinct explanation of why I should distrust Spark?
Everything they say is a lie, hows that?
"Nodeless" is marketing scam to avoid calling it Trustodial.
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It's the perfect term because it's accurate. These solutions are not comparable to self-custody lightning and it's wrong to position them in a similar light.
Can make the case that it's better than straight SQL in that there's liability accounting, but that's a distinction without a difference.
Spark is better than Liquid
Maybe, maybe not, I'm not comparing fake-L2 to fake-L2
it has unilateral exit
That's been debunked several different ways, state chains are inherently prone to collusion... not withstanding the fact anyone using this stuff is doing so without live-ness protection or with amounts too small to afford a lightning channel in the first place... if a user can be online to defend a claim AND afford a UTXO then just use real Lightning.
At least with a watchtower you can cloudify away the online-ness part.
I know where you're coming form with regards to product demands, and nothing but respect for you, your defense of and vision for real Lightning over the years, the original LND Breeze... and more... but let's not pretend these fake L2's are anything but crypto-theater.
If Trustodial is what your users want, just embrace that.
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- Define L2, then explain why it's "fake".
- "Debunked": by who? how? The too small amount is also an issue if you want to close a Lightning channel. Same for live-ness. You can have a watchtower with spark as well. Not to mention the SO are inherently acting as watchtowers.
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Lightning is the only L2, completely peer to peer reusable transactions without a coordinator/operator. To the extent there can ever be another L2 it won't involve a central coordinator... and it certainly won't require a swap service to market itself as a Lightning wallet.
Literally any article about state chains talks about the collusion trade-off regarding prior key-holders.
SO is more coordinator than watchtower, and afaik there's no justice tx equivalent to create a disincentive. Spark or its quasi-federated partners do not solve liveness like shroedinger's watchtower keeping Lightning honest.
Small amounts = trustodial no matter what, so it's pointless to call fake L2's an improvement over Lightning because they suffer the same emergent properties of working with the chain as Lightning would.
You're one of the greats in Lightning Roy, I don't believe that you believe any of this equivalency marketing... lest we just forget Lightning ever existed and relegate payments to the centrally coordinated network du-jour.
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- LOL, if Lightning is your definition of L2, yes, ofc everything else is "fake".
- If a prior owner of a Spark leaf broadcasts a branch, yes, the owner needs to publish theirs (or delegate it to a watchtower). It's not different than Lightning in that regard.
- SO acts as a watchtower, and you can have a watchtower outside of the SE.
- What you call marketing, is using simple terms to explain the tech. Read our documentation, my articles, etc. We're trying to be as accurate as possible. "Trustodial" in that regard isn't intuitive. It's actually the exact opposite from what the solution trying to do. I, btw, like the differentiation between non-custodial (can be trustodial) and self-custodial (self sufficient), but you need to keep in mind these are all regulatory terms.
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They literally call it Spark/LightSpark to affinity-scam as Lightning, and use SWAPS in/out, because Lightning is the standard.
So we've established it doesn't solve live-ness any better than Lightning, actually worse, since there's no justice disincentive.
We've also established it doesn't do anything for users with amounts too small to defend themselves or get a Lightning channel.
It's not even open network protocol in the sense that users still need Lightning to interop across disparate coordinators. In that sense, it's not even Bitcoin.. at best it's shroedinger's bitcoin.
So what does it actually do? Creates swap fees for the coordinator and puts unsophisticated users in a position that's no better than if they just went the SQL route.
Marketing is a generous term on my part, it's really affinity scamming. From the ground up it has tried to position itself as Lightning despite being just another centralized exchange.
I don't accept the regulatory justification, scamming the regulator is laudable but affinity scamming the user is not.
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Live-ness if someone is trying to cheat you mean. But, you can receive payments when you're offline...
You really don't need me to explain the UX advantages of not using channels, right?
You lost me with "just another centralized exchange"... If want to have a technical discussion, let's have one, but shouting "scam" on everything that isn't using a channel, comparing it to a centralized exchange is just nonsense.
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bwahahaah
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In simple terms TLDR: they will get inside of every single Bitcoin LN service and will map every single user, like Coinbase is doing. Then is very easy to catch all into a CBDC like system that nobody can get out.
BOYCOTT LIGHTSPARK AND ALL AFFILIATED SERVICES AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
btw, take your time and read that article... or die as any ignorant normie.
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Is not FUD. Is just a warning about the direction where is going all this crap with spark.
People have to know who is behind all this Spark and their intentions.
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It is very well related. Yes, I know are not the same thing.
Spark is an open source protocol (https://github.com/buildonspark/spark) and Lightspark is their own LN product that works like a separate network and is "plugged" into BTC LN.
But both are coming from the same evil people and with the same intentions: using BTC network to create a more controlled paypal-coin (as described in this whole long investigative article).
Maybe they can fool some new users, but not the old bitcoiners.
As Justin said, we respect you for all you've done with Breez and LND, but at least don't try to fool more people and just say what is it with this Spark. We don't care what people want to build with it (stablecoins, paypailcoins, whatever bullshit), but at least to be honest and say from the beginning that is NOT about Bitcoin itself.
Great thread between Roy and shock
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