pull down to refresh
0 sats \ 20 replies \ @Signal312 OP 4h \ parent \ on: Anyone else going down the rabbit hole on the Charlie Kirk Assassination? news
Charlie said in this interview - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2qn0mvSCig&ab_channel=MegynKelly "I have less freedom to criticize Israel than Israeli citizens have. And that's weird, very weird".
As a matter of fact, I checked out a semi-mainstream Israeli newspaper (https://www.haaretz.com/), and it was full of articles that would cause you to be called anti-Semitic, in the US. You can read some articles via archive.vn if you want.
Kirk and many on the right are starting to see that there are massive problems with how we talk about Israel. I don't think he was anti-Israel but he was making a point that there is this ridiculous double standard about even questioning the actions of their government and military.
The issue to me is that there is no room for grey areas. There is this you are with us or against us mentality. With some people you can't even be a little bit critical of what that government does or you are a Hamas supporter. Its absurd.
Many years ago I started to wonder why American Christians were so blindly supportive of that government. I started asking my family. Not because I disagreed. I didn't. I just wanted to know where it came from. People got very defensive and combative with me. So I had to do my own research.
Like many things, most people just kinda go along. They don't question. Its one reason we are in this current mess. People like Kirk that push back and do it in logic based arguments are gonna make people angry. Even if they are kind and respectful. Many times that makes people more angry.
Then you have the other side in this. The other extreme. Its a small number but they just hate Jews. Everything is the JEWS. Or, everything is an Israeli plot. Its dumb. Israel political parties do control many US politicians and try to gain support. Its not even a question really. But Israel does not run the US. Its the other way around.
reply
I think, if anything, Kirk revealed how truly powerful open debate is.
So powerful, that everyone agrees that multiple factions around the world, of all different political persuasions, are willing to kill to silence it.
We can't give in to those threats. We need to have more open dialogue and more open debate.
Those who can't tolerate speech are losers. They are losers who don't deserve any respect.
I have had multiple people that I know - that I have never talked politics with - mention recently in the course of standard conversation how there's so much "anti-Semitism" around now.
I didn't challenge them. But I think to them, absolutely any commentary about the war in Gaza that isn't completely pro-Israel is anti-Semitism.
Apparently much of Charlie Kirks financial support came from the deep-pocketed Jewish donors, very closely allied to Israel. That's why he was (originally) uncritically supportive of Israel.
reply
have had multiple people that I know - that I have never talked politics with - mention recently in the course of standard conversation how there's so much "anti-Semitism" around now.
You probably have a lot of low information "voters" around you as I do. That's what the TV says. But its not a single message anymore. You have people promoting Hamas mixed in with people that think both Hamas and the Israeli government are in the wrong.
They seek to divide us. That's how we are controlled. We should talk about these things like humans. Not be told to shut up or killed.
reply
But I think to them, absolutely any commentary about the war in Gaza that isn't completely pro-Israel is anti-Semitism.
The sad reality is that these types of attitudes are leading to and will increase anti-semitism.
I remember in the early 2000s realizing that the far left was going to far in their claims that the tech industry was full of hate. In the 2010s they were making stuff up. A nazi thing here. A white supremacist there. Movements that were present in my youth had been marginalized at this point. But they kept calling people Nazi that weren't. They kept calling people white supremacists because they were against quotas for speakers at conferences. I said to many of my friends that they are going to create what they claim to fear and hate.
I think this is what we are seeing. When you call people names like this for long enough some people are just wired to lean into it and say. Yeah, I am. And here's why. Its a human pattern outside of this political conflict. Its a rebellious nature in some people.
The same people that mock the left as snowflakes are doing the same thing on Israel. There are Jew hating people. Plenty of them. But far too many on the right and in Christian circles are lumping everyone into the same bucket because they are lazy and do not want to have a reasonable dialog. They have allowed fear and anger to overpower their ability to reason.
reply
I'm really not who you want to have this debate with. Our Church was smeared by people who were Anti-Semitic leftists in 2017. Charlie is the latest version of this problem in an upside-down way. Free speech is fundamentally broken in multiple ways.
reply
How is free speech broken?
reply
In our case, it allowed people to make false claims and threats that the institutions that should be guarding against that do nothing about. This then allowed them to magnify their attacks which resulted in the loss of our business and home and a sizable chunk of our Church.
reply
Aren't you protected by libel / slander laws?
Also, not trying to minimize it but its true. We were promised this kind of thing would happen by Jesus and we have a long history of it happening. We win in the end. Love overcomes evil and the wicked. I think we need to remind our brothers and sisters in Christ of these things. These people are deceived by the enemy. They are not the enemy. God will deal with the enemy. We must trust in Jesus and not back down.
reply
Aren't you protected by libel / slander laws?
Did you see the court system when Trump "lost" the election? No thanks.
Also, not trying to minimize it but its true. We were promised this kind of thing would happen by Jesus and we have a long history of it happening. We win in the end. Love overcomes evil and the wicked. I think we need to remind our brothers and sisters in Christ of these things. These people are deceived by the enemy. They are not the enemy. God will deal with the enemy. We must trust in Jesus and not back down.
Indeed. You have now hit upon my actual Israel policy.
reply
I'm not interested in debating you but I am curious what you think about this on a theological frame because of your church.
Do you hold to the theology that the Church is now Israel and that the Church is grafted into the promises of God? Specifically in Romans 9 and 11 Paul talks about this.
reply
Do you hold to the theology that the Church is now Israel and that the Church is grafted into the promises of God?
I don't hold to anything other than the HOPE that we are grafted into God whoever "we" are, whatever those promises may be. Ultimately, He will decide which of His promises apply, and which do not to each person.
Paul is usually misapplied and misinterpreted. His audience was "non-Jews" mostly. The "Jewish" Church was James--the one Paul asked for advice from.
reply
His audience was "non-Jews" mostly.
For sure. Which is what most of us are.
other than the HOPE that we are grafted into God whoever "we" are, whatever those promises may be. Ultimately, He will decide which of His promises apply, and which do not to each person.
Amen. I wish more people were this open. Ultimately, I need to put one foot in front of the other and walk.
When you say "Our Church", which church are you referring to?
reply
It was/is a small Church based on James the Just--which was the original Jerusalem Church.
reply