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36 sats \ 4 replies \ @SimpleStacker 24 Sep \ on: Massive Pro-Palestine Protests Rock Italy, 60 Officers Injured Politics_And_Law
The counterfactual I always go through in my mind is, "What if Israel had shown restraint in its response after Oct. 7, and worked to curry diplomatic sympathy instead of immediately going to massive retaliation?"
80%, I think this would have worked out better for Israel, both in terms of their international standing and in terms of their long term security.
But 20% I feel like there are enough true anti-semites and radical leftists who will always side with the Palestinians no matter what, that it wouldn't have worked anyway.
Still, I think the first hypothesis is likely more correct... I often have to remind myself that moderates are still the silent majority.
I don't think that is in Bibi's nature, but even if he tried that, it would have been difficult from a domestic politics issue. From what I see now most Israelis are happy with the response, and international standing is secondary.
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My perspective may be slanted because the only israelis I know are academics that I've met through work. Most of them are extremely unhappy with Netanyahu... one of them even said his son is likely going to jail for refusing to serve in the IDF over the war in Gaza.
But, yes, it's very likely that bibi's short-term political concerns outweigh any international considerations, or even any long-term strategic considerations.
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What drives me nuts when it comes to people I know that talk about Israel A LOT is how they act like Israel is united in their support for Bibi. The guy has always been divisive figure. Honestly, I wonder if the attacks on Israel basically created a similar thing to what we had in the US after 911. Where people were radicalized and pushed to support things they would never do otherwise. Anger was high in the US and I remember feeling it myself. I remember voting for Bush and being in support of it all. Later I remember realizing I allowed anger to cloud my thinking and how I fell into group think. I get the sense this pattern is not lost on Bibi and I would not be shocked to find out that he's capitalizing on it and maybe even allowed the events to occur. Nevertheless, he is not behaving like a civilized leader and if any other nation were doing these things the US would be critical...
What am I saying? The US has long supported terrible dictators for our own interests. The US has no credibility either.
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- There is indeed a number of people that hate Jews. No clue what the number is.
- There are people that have reasons to hate the Israeli state for taking their land(in their view)
- There are people that do support the existence of Israel as a state(this is not the same as supporting the lives of Jews) but do not approve of the actions of Israel with their Palestinian neighbors.
- There are people that are neutral on Israel as a state but also see evidence of the current government and its leader stoking this who conflict up for decades to gain justification for their current actions. The current leader has long been accused of supporting Hamas over the PLA as a strategic move to gain support for taking the rest of Israels historic land(their view)
- There are people that believe this is fulfillment of Biblical prophesy of Israel taking back its land and rebuilding the temple (gross oversimplification).
- There are people that simply view the Hamas violent acts as a justification for actions.
There are probably MANY more perspectives. Many of the views I listed over-lap each other with other views. Its incredibly complex and honestly VERY few people are well informed on all the history prior to WW2. Myself included. I know enough to know I don't know enough.
I don't think most people talking about this conflict are acting in good faith. They seem to always have low information and little interest in learning or seeking a common solution. Sound familiar?
My personal views are that Israel's government is evil. Possibly worse than our own. The current leader sounds like he is trying to stay in power in order to avoid prosecution. I do believe what Ron Paul said many years ago in Congress. That Netanyahu's party supported and helped fund Hamas as a more radical opponent that they could more easily demonize and use as a justification to take out. The PLO, while itself not a group I support was more moderate. This tactic is one the US has used as well. Hamas is terrible. What I've seen the Israeli government do in response is terrible. I want no part of either side of this conflict. It really feels like most people are just being manipulated on this topic. Its hard for me to take people seriously that take a side. Obviously the Palestinians are the victims here. Maybe they should have done different things politically but I can't support what Israel is doing. Nor can I justify what Hamas did.
And I have a hard time believing that Hamas was able to do those attacks in a nation we always hear has such incredible security. It smells bad. Really bad. And what we see now done by Bibi makes me even more suspicious.
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