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In America it seems we are generally unhappy with what is provided by mass media, airlines, food industry, and the pharmaceutical industry. Is this what free market capitalism results in? Or is this captured crony capitalism we are observing in America?
Five corporations control 90% of the US media market.
Airlines merged from 12 major carriers in 1980 to 4 today.
Four giants control 80% of meat processing.
A handful of companies control the pharmaceutical industry.
Yeah, there are a bunch of state enforced barriers to entry that restrict competition, as well as various special legal and financial protections.
It's not even close to a free market. America isn't even in the 90th percentile of economic freedom (https://www.heritage.org/index/pages/report), and most of the countries ahead of it aren't widely thought of as free market bastions.
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I can't tell you how many times my socialist/communist friends have said to me, "well, we tried capitalism. Look what happened."
They're like aliens from another planet. We can't find common ground linguistically.
I think if an agreed definition of capitalism is set, you can often have a constructive conversation.
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78 sats \ 7 replies \ @kepford 19h
My oldest son has been talking to me asking how to talk to people that have very different views on things. I told him, most people aren't interested in challenging their assumptions. They just parrot what they have heard. It is rare that most people have ever really talked to someone they disagree with from the perspective of learning why they disagree.
I ask questions and if they open the door by asking me a question now I can start a dialogue. Most of the time people stop there. They don't really care to hear good arguments. They would rather have straw man arguments.
The few times I have met an open communist I have enjoyed the conversation because I asked all the questions. Found some common ground. And usually their definitions are way different so if I had not asked questions we would be talking past one another.
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.
~ Proverbs 18:2
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Supposedly, there was a conversation between Mises and some communist philosopher where they realized by the end that they believed very similar things once they sorted through their linguistic differences and let each other add the caveats and nuances they each believed to be important.
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I suspect that this is much more true than people realize. Our positions are a lot closer than it's often perceived, simply because of the words we use, and what topics we choose to prioritize talking about.
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It doesn't take too many tweaks to get from "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need." to specialization and consumer sovereignty.
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52 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 19h
Honestly. These people I have talked to have the same disdain for the post war liberals as many of us. As well as the Neocons.
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42 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 19h
That's interesting. Never heard of this.
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97 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 19h
That's my experience too. Lately I'd rather try to have a civil conversation with people who disagree with me than finish sentences of a member of my tribe. It gets boring.
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 19h
It is boring. I hate talking about the "latest" thing unless it is pointing to a base topic.
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Yeah, but if they're claiming this is "free market capitalism", I doubt a constructive conversation will be had.
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70 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 28 Sep
I know, but typically the common ground to at least try to have a discussion are ideas like big pharma and the military industrial complex.
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Libertarians and socialists have common cause against the parasitic rentseeking crony capitalists who undermine free markets and misuse fiat money debt issuance to inflate asset prices.
The problem is corporate sponsorship has corrupted politics. The Clintons were owned by Goldman Sachs.
And so people have become disillusioned by these corrupt politics many have given up and become disillusioned. A revolution of sorts is required to remove the corporate sponsorship and return true democracy and a political leadership who can put the best interests of the nation and its people before the dictates of wealthy sponsors.
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The socialist rhetoric is so powerful, even in blatant presence of evidence of the exact contrary, that sometimes I have genuinely questioned me if it's us the ones who are wrong, and people actually deserve to be enslaved and pay the price of their utter idiocy. Socialism proved that there's one and only one thing that truly matters: rhetoric. Everything else comes second, at any cost, as history has lavishly proved: no matter the price, no matter the size of the tragedy, no matter how consistent the failure, how blatant the reality... people will hold to it for dear life.... ... I mean... it's really our fault at this point, Platon made this very clear a millenia ago with his allegory of the shadows in the cave... we are the delusional ones here pretending we can go against that fundamental human nature... perhaps, despite being doomed to failure, socialism is actually que only system that can govern men, even if it will not serve men...
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Socialism doesn't seem to be the answer.
I wonder if you have thoughts on why capitalism becomes crony capitalism? In the examples in the original post, I'd ask, do you like the result of these types of industries? Do you think they generally benefit the public?
Perhaps this is the best we can expect?
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I answered this a little in your other comment. I may add that we can expect as much as people's culture shifts from tribalism. Otherwise, any trace of capitalism is nearly accidental, and even then it works so well than when it's fully ignored.
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Is there a reason capitalism gets captured? Is there a fundamental flaw with it?
Do you have an example of a country today that has actual 'capitalism' the way you define it? Take away what all your 'communist' friends say, use your own definition when answering the question.
I assume you make the same argument that socialists make, that there is no actual example of socialism that was allowed to function as they define it. Well, we don't live in a fairy tale utopia where socialism/capitalism works as your socialist friends (or you) wish it did.
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Utopian ideals of capitalism, socialism, libertarianism, etc will never fully exist. That seems to be a given and acknowledged by everyone, regardless of ideology. My simple working definition of capitalism here would be a free market coupled with a respect for private property and personal freedoms. The idea that the US has lived under capitalism at any point in the last hundred years is ridiculous. The government has its thumb on the scale of every market, owns almost all of the infrastructure, and picks its winners in every industry.
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Allow me to intervene.
My theory is that there's no flaw in capitalism in itself as a scheme, but on people's intuition and conception of reality. People conceive reality from the fixed pie point of view, and intuitively think that for anything to work properly someone should command it. It's perhaps an inheritance from our most primitive upbringings, when those simple concepts where the absolute truth in an unproductive, uncohesioned society.
About "it's not true capitalism", it doesn't compare at all with the "it wasn't true socialism". We say "it isn't true capitalism" when you don't have that many companies to choose from. Socialists say "it wasn't true socialism" when tragedies are measured with no less than 8 digits on any parameter (deats, destruction, loss of capital, etc). The virtue of capitalism is that even when it's not "true capitalism", it's the highest standard of living on earth. When it's not "true socialism", there's no standard, no living, no earth.
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The simple but hard to accept truth is the best economy and societal outcome result from a careful combination of good government and free markets. Only government has the mandate power and incentive to direct capital toward projects that will have long time horizons before they deliver positive results. Only government has the ability to plan strategic development of resources which are required by free markets but often not sufficiently supplied by free markets. Only a government has the mandate and power to build military and diplomatic power to project in the nations best interests. Only a government has the power to restrict rentseeking cartel and monopolies from developing and from preventing foreign interests from acquiring capture and control of strategic supply chains...for example rare earths refining. USA is deluded in its myths about free enterprise- USA has become as the OP points out an example of crony capitalism. China with its mixed economy planned and directed by the CCP politburo composing of engineers has beaten the west capitalism at its own game precisely by providing the ideal conditions for free enterprise to thrive. Try gaining too much market dominance in China and see what happens to you - ask Jack Ma. In contrast every US president for the last 50 years at least has been owned by corporate sponsors and is beholden to them, not the wider interests of the nation and people.
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careful combination of good government and free markets.
There's no such combination. Any attempt in that direction do not only exacerbates the problem: it's the very cause of the problem in the first place.
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Every wealthy empire in history evidences otherwise. The British Empire via the East India Company could only force trade upon China because of its superior navy and cannons. They demanded Hong Kong and established the banking that enabled the Opium Trade and exploitation of China and the subsequent incursions by multiple western nations as well as Japan...all enabled by governments and their military power projection supporting their merchants. The capital markets of the Netherlands enabled global trade and wealth for the Dutch. The Spanish and Portuguese royalty sponsored conquest and exploitation of Latin America. The US Petrodollar has only been operative due to US pledge to provide military defense and market and USTs to oil producing OPEC nations. US hegemony picked up the British Empires hegemony after WW2 with the same Jewish bankers in shadows operating the monetary networks that have run parallel to the military for hundreds of years.
Each empire declines as a new more proficient combination of merchants and government power projection is developed by a competing nation state.
China has won the trade war while USA carries a chronic trade and fiscal deficit that nobody sees as ever being repaid. Trump is held hostage by China - 'if you want our refined rare earths essential to your military and manufacturing sponsors then bend the knee Donald!'
Wealth never endures without the framework of government providing the best conditions for its merchants and history tells this over and over and over again back to Roman times and before to King Solomon! Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.
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Every wealthy empire in history evidences otherwise.
No. Not in the slightest. Every single empire in history is an evidence of the exact opposite you're saying.
You are stuck in the cartoonish introductory version of history you might have learned in elementary school and have never read any actual source beyond that.
Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.
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Please demonstrate you are capable of engaging in fact based reasoned debate rather than unsupported assertions.
Otherwise you are just an arrogant ideolog who makes baseless assertions and attacks those who disagree but cannot back your assertions with reason.
I have given numerous historical examples to support my reasoning. You have not.
Nothing constructive can come from your approach. You neither support your own assertions nor refute mine with any facts or reasoning.
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I did gave a fact based assertion: your assumptions and assertions are false. Hence all I could say about them: no.
The British Empire via the East India Company could only force trade upon China because of its superior navy and cannons.
Plunder of one empire over the other. Not "wealth production". Not "societal outcome". Absolute Zero Game, aka Plunder.
They demanded Hong Kong and established the banking that enabled the Opium Trade and exploitation of China
Plunder of one empire over the other. Not "wealth production". Not "societal outcome". Absolute Zero Game, aka Plunder.
The capital markets of the Netherlands enabled global trade and wealth for the Dutch.
An excellent example of free markets doing their job without government intervention. Not at all your point.
The Spanish and Portuguese royalty sponsored conquest and exploitation of Latin America.
Plunder of one empire over the other. Not "wealth production". Not "societal outcome". Absolute Zero Game, aka Plunder.
Not a single one of your examples sustain your point. What you want me to say? All than can be said about your argument is just: no. In fact through your examples you have proved yourself wrong. And you don't realize. That makes the debate impossible to be constructive, you will not acknowledge reality even when you yourself repeat it. No debate is possible. Hence the only answer I can give you: just, no.
The fact people get this very simple but fundamental fact exactly backwards distresses me deeply.
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It is infuriating
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I was wondering why the US is almost in the yellow zone, but then I saw Heritage has scored the US a 0 for fiscal health.
That's kind of insane if the UK scores a 19.0 and France has a 30.0, while for both these countries issuing more debt has far further reaching consequences than for the US.
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400 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 23h
Yes, we're very happy with the results. It's objectively more successful by almost every metric than any other system.
Complaining is easy. Yes, everything could always be better. Indeed, the "default" for all of human history was both worse and less capitalistic.
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1 FCC 1 FDA 1 FAA 1 USDA
It'd actually be more capitalistic for these industries just to be state run enterprises so consumers know which throat to choke and competition/innovation to emerge as parallel or shadow industries
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Agreed completely. Our crony capitalist system with completely captured 'regulators' is bullshit and consumers are tricked into thinking they have someone on their side.
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The problem is that we will always get the government society we deserve, always has been true and always will be.
If the government nationalized and consolidated the airlines for example, you'd have half of people demanding free airfare because muh oppreshun
The top 20% or so would then come up with the aforementioned parallelism, like hyperloops and suborbitals, that would eventually buckle to the combination of wanting economics of scale and PR pressure that they're elitist, such that they become a state enterprise themselves
So instead of accepting emergent classes we homogenize into a single class where the top quintile isn't even a factor
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And take the utmost pride of belonging for it.
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Yea sociology is really just biology if you think about people as cells in the larger organism of society.
Virtue signaling is just cell signaling, and the organism is the average of its cells.
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Capitalists get rich --> people demand regulation on capitalists --> Capitalists get richer --> people demand more regulation on capitalists
Regulation destroys capitalists from the bottom up...and you are left with what we have.
Bastiat nailed it in his essay Capital and Interest (http://bastiat.org/en/capital_and_interest.html):
"Imagine, in a vast and fertile country, a population of a thousand inhabitants, destitute of all capital thus defined. It will assuredly perish by the pangs of hunger. Let us suppose a case hardly less cruel. Let us suppose that ten of these savages are provided with instruments and provisions sufficient to work and to live themselves until harvest time, as well as to remunerate the services of ninety laborers. The inevitable result will be the death of nine hundred human beings. It is clear then, that since nine hundred and ninety men, urged by want, will crowd upon the supports which would only maintain a hundred, the ten capitalists will be masters of the market. They will obtain labor on the hardest conditions, for they will put it up to auction, or the highest bidder. And observe this -- if these capitalists entertain such pious sentiments as would induce them to impose personal privations on themselves, in order to diminish the sufferings of some of their brethren, this generosity, which attaches to morality, will be as noble in its principle as useful in its effects. But if, duped by that false philosophy which persons wish so inconsiderately to mingle with economic laws, they take to remunerating labor largely, far from doing good, they will do harm. They will give double wages, it may be, but then, forty-five men will be better provided for, whilst forty-five others will come to augment the number of those who are sinking into the grave. Upon this supposition, it is not the lowering of wages which is the mischief, it is the scarcity of capital. Low wages are not the cause, but the effect of the evil. I may add, that they are to a certain extent the remedy. It acts in this way; it distributes the burden of suffering as much as it can, and saves as many lives as a limited quantity of sustenance permits.
Suppose now, that instead of ten capitalists, there should be a hundred, two hundred, five hundred -- is it not evident that the condition of the whole population, and, above all, that of the prolétaires, will be more and more improved? Is it not evident that, apart from every consideration of generosity, they would obtain more work and better pay for it? -- that they themselves will be in a better condition to form capitals, without being able to fix the limits to this ever-increasing facility of realizing equality and well-being? Would it not be madness in them to admit such doctrines, and to act in a way which would drain the source of wages, and paralyze the activity and stimulus of saving? Let them learn this lesson, then; doubtless, capitals are good for those who possess them: who denies it? but they are also useful to those who have not yet been able to form them; and it is important to those who have them not, that others should have them.
Yes, if the prolétaires knew their true interests, they would seek, with the greatest care, what circumstances are, and what are not favorable to saving, in order to favor the former and to discourage the latter. They would sympathize with every measure which tends to the rapid formation of capitals. They would be enthusiastic promoters of peace, liberty, order, security, the union of classes and peoples, economy, moderation in public expenses, simplicity in the machinery of Government; for it is under the sway of all these circumstances that saving does its work, brings plenty within the reach of the masses, invites those persons to become the formers of capital who were formerly under the necessity of borrowing upon hard conditions. They would repel with energy the warlike spirit, which diverts from its true course so large a part of human labor; the monopolizing spirit, which deranges the equitable distribution of riches, in the way by which liberty alone can realize it; the multitude of public services, which attack our purses only to check our liberty; and, in short, those subversive, hateful, thoughtless doctrines, which alarm capital, prevent its formation, oblige it to flee, and finally to raise its price, to the special disadvantage of the workers, who bring it into operation. Well, and in this respect is not the revolution of February a hard lesson? Is it not evident, that the insecurity it has thrown into the world of business, on the one hand; and, on the other, the advancement of the fatal theories to which I have alluded, and which, from the clubs, have almost penetrated into the regions of the Legislature, have everywhere raised the rate of interest? Is it not evident, that from that time the "prolétaires" have found greater difficulty in procuring those materials, instruments, and provisions, without which labor is impossible? Is it not that which has caused stoppages; and do not stoppages, in their turn, lower wages? Thus there is a deficiency of labor to the "prolétaires", from the same cause which loads the objects they consume with an increase of price, in consequence of the rise of interest. High interest, low wages, means in other words that the same article preserves its price, but that the part of the capitalist has invaded, without profiting himself, that of the workman. "
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Chinas mixed economy where capital allocation is largely directed by the government has won the trade war with the west where crony capitalists largely direct your governments.
The CCP must oversee and ensure improvement for most citizens or face removal- bloody removal. Western politicians face no serious consequences for their serial subservience to their corporate sponsors and chronic failure to strength economies and prosperity.
Ironically perhaps, the CCP autocracy delivers greater incentive to the government to perform via 'Heavens Mandate' than is delivered by 'liberal western democratic' governments.
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14 sats \ 1 reply \ @BeeRye 28 Sep
Could be at this moment, yes. But I think the same thing is destined to happen in China as people try and protect their fiefdoms and economic moats. Perhaps they are a generation or two behind, but what goes up must come down in a sense.
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Yes over time as Chinese citizens will forget The Opium Wars and the one hundred years of humiliation followed by the trauma of Maos era. As wealth breeds entitlement and citizens demand more and more 'rights' and as power corrupts, China will face the same tendency that has corroded western civilisation. But remember western civilisation has dominated the planet for 500 years in a series of iterations and China has a strong cultural bias toward stability and long experience in and belief in its centrality and 'right' to dominance.
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Multiple players driven to innovate, improve quality, and reduce costs to win customers. The problem in America today is that in several major industries competition has eroded over time. Consolidation through mergers has created a handful of dominant players who wield disproportionate influence over prices, access, and even public policy.
When five corporations control nearly all of the media market and a few airlines carry almost all passengers there is less incentive to offer better service or lower prices. The meat processing and pharmaceutical industries follow that same pattern which magnifies the power of lobbyists and entrenches regulations that serve incumbents over challengers. Consumers are left with the illusion of choice but face uniform pricing models and limited innovation.
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Even though the US does not have a truly free market it is free enough to allow people more prosperity than an economy with less freedom.
What is frustrating is when people say they believe in free markets with their mouths but don't with their actions. When people think the government is corrupt and incompetent but expect that same institution to outsmart corporations. It's deeply flawed logic. And most of all, if we had a free market for money we would have many other problems solved. Not all, but many problems are made worse by fiat money.
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Take the dollar and the guns and USA becomes zimbabwe
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A "free market" is not the same as a fair one. The US does not have a fair market. Even the Austrian school believed in a level playing field. Regulation is not the issue, it's what the government chooses to regulate.
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Some infrastructures and supply chains are strategic - and some are not. The Panama canal is strategic- if China controls it they can more easily ship Venezuelas oil to China and refine it and send manufactured goods in return. Roads, rail and electricity supply and shipping canals, can sometimes be natural monopolies and thus strategic assets. If your economy is a primary producer then the processing and export of your produce can be a strategic supply chain- if foreign markets who want those products you produce gain capture and control of the processing and export supply chain then you risk becoming a banana republic. If your economy requires refined rare earths as crucial components for your military and high tech manufacturing then you had better not become dependent upon a competing nation who develop a monopoly over the supply of rare earths. Only a government can watch for and prevent such strategic pitfalls as the investment required to refine rare earths is not viable for free market investors to make. The direct returns to investors are not adequate to justify private capital investment - the true return is instead to the wider economy that retains supply and avoids becoming subservient to a dominant foreign supplier.
The strongest economy is one where government works to maximise the productive potential of free markets by minimising external and internal supply chain and market rigging. As famously noted by Adam Smith, it is the natural tendency for merchants to conspire against consumers and without a government vigilant and active against such market fixing, free markets cannot thrive.
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The strongest economy requires a government with the incentive to develop it. Only a government has the mandate and power to limit cartels and monopolies, to invest in strategic infrastructure, to ensure secure supply chains and markets, to ensure its citizens have good access to education and skills development, to build a strong military which can protect the nation and project power to maximise access to resources and markets. In all successful empires of the past, including the rise of America such a government role played a central part in the building of prosperity. Unfortunately due to uncontrolled corporate funding of politics capital has come to own western governments, making a mockery of democracy. people have grown disillusioned and apathetic and crony capitalism has come to direct your governments, not in the nations and the people best interests, but in the interests of a select few wealthy rich pricks.
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You are inverting causality. Your reasoning puts the solution in what's exactly the only cause of the problem: government intervention. The reality and the solution is the exact opposite of what you describe.
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Every wealthy empire in history evidences otherwise. The British Empire via the East India Company could only force trade upon China because of its superior navy and cannons. They demanded Hong Kong and established the banking that enabled the Opium Trade and exploitation of China and the subsequent incursions by multiple western nations as well as Japan...all enabled by governments and their military power projection supporting their merchants.
The capital markets of the Netherlands enabled global trade and wealth for the Dutch. The Spanish and Portuguese royalty sponsored conquest and exploitation of Latin America.
The US Petrodollar has only been operative due to US pledge to provide military defense and market and USTs to oil producing OPEC nations. US hegemony picked up the British Empires hegemony after WW2 with the same Jewish bankers in shadows operating the monetary networks that have run parallel to the military for hundreds of years.
Each empire declines as a new more proficient combination of merchants and government power projection is developed by a competing nation state.
China has won the trade war while USA carries a chronic trade and fiscal deficit that nobody sees as ever being repaid.
Trump is held hostage by China - 'if you want our refined rare earths essential to your military and manufacturing sponsors then bend the knee Donald!'
Wealth never endures without the framework of government providing the best conditions for its merchants and history tells this over and over and over again back to Roman times and before to King Solomon! Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.
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Every wealthy empire in history evidences otherwise.
No. Not in the slightest. Every single empire in history is an evidence of the exact opposite you're saying.
You are stuck in the cartoonish introductory version of history you might have learned in elementary school and have never read any actual source beyond that.
Learn from history or be condemned to repeat it.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @AG 28 Sep
Free market operate locally, you can't have free (regulated) market. One or the other.
Bookmarked for next TM7 update from ~AGORA!
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Are you fucking kidding me? The most important commodity that takes part in the all the transactions (money) is centrally planned. How could you possibly call the market 'free' in that scenario?
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