What are your feelings on Immigration and Customs Enforcement actions of late? \ stacker news ~Politics_And

pull down to refresh

What are your feelings on Immigration and Customs Enforcement actions of late?

728 sats \ 25 comments \ @Scoresby 5 Oct Politics_And_Law

Immigration and Customs Enforcement have always felt to me like they are unconstitutional. Every time I cross the border, the sensation is that my constitutional rights as a US citizen are put on hold. Frankly this pisses me off. Just because I have left the country and am now returning, does not give the government a blank check to do whatever they would like to me -- and clearly they can't, yet there is a growing sense that they can choose to violate my rights with very little consequence.

Several years ago, driving across southern Arizona, I came upon an ICE traffic stop. They required me to stop my car, step out and answer their questions and show my ID. They were not searching for any particular individual, nor did they have any suspicion that I was breaking a law. Apparently this is normal in areas near the southern border. It seems like a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment.¹

Recently, I read about ICE's actions at a Chicago apartment building In the process of their raid, ICE damaged the building and detained many people who were US citizens. They zip-tied children's wrists, kicked down doors, and detained people for hours.

Now, first thing I will say: God help the person who zip ties my children. There is no time limit on my feelings on this matter.

Second, if you support such actions, does it occur to you that you are normalizing an expansion of government power that can be used against you when people you don't agree with are in power?

Third, even if government actions are later determined to be unconstitutional, it's small consolation -- seeing as the worst thing that happens to the people that authorize such actions is that they have to spend more of our tax dollars defending themselves.

Fourth, this seems like a clear set up to move towards the UK-style digital ID and the requiring US citizens to produce such ID on the government's whim.

If ICE detains someone who us a US citizen or damages their property or harasses them, what should be the consequence?

I'm aware of the 100 mile "reasonable distance" from a border rule, but it does not allow them to require US citizens to produce proof of their citizenship, nor does it allow them to detain US citizens without probable cause (which is more than I happened to be driving on I-10). ↩

view all related items

156 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 5 Oct

My feelings? Borders are imaginary boundaries. I think this is the wrong question. The right question is about private property. If all those people coming from other places are invading your property you have the right to defend it. That's it.

14 sats \ 2 replies \ @sirstackalot 5 Oct

What about the collective's private property? That's what nation states are meant to represent - a collection of individuals with common culture/ethnicity/heritage. And state lands are property of the collective and thus need to be protected from invaders. No?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 5 Oct

collective's private property?

there's no such thing. Or is communism. But that is another bullshit story.

And state lands are property of the collective and thus need to be protected from invaders.

If each one can defend their land/property where they live, why do you need state to "protect" you. That is an appeal to authority, that means you put yourself under their authority and you get what you fucking deserve - a boot on your face.

nation states are meant to represent

nation states are a scam to keep you enslaved by an illusion.

Watch and learn

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Oct

There are no borders without government. No law, no justice, or even framework for it. Without government capital investment declines rapidly toward zero because there is no consistent way to enforce contracts and uphold property rights. If you do not like government so much go somewhere there is none. If on the other hand if you accept government is a fundamental requirement for prosperity and security get involved in working towards ensuring your government is not corrupt. Libertarians complete disregard for governments and assertion that they are all completely corrupt and therefore there is no point in trying to change them is the greatest gift to all authoritarian despots as it grants them the perfect apathetic citizens who will not fight against corrupt government.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

I wonder how it would change US politics if the default was to side with citizens who enforced their own property rights.

We are very far away from this.

7 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 5 Oct

Think about this: it's all a shitshow to keep more people divided and fight to each others. Biden admin bring them inside and gave them perks to keep them coming. Trump admin want to kick them out because is part of the initial plan (divide and control). Both sides they don't give a shit about people and about you. They only want more power to keep the boot on your face.

Are among them criminals? Yes ofc, like everywhere else. But those criminals must be selected and bring to justice.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Oct

Without government how do you select and bring to justice criminals?

Without government you cannot control immigration.

There are no borders without government. No law, no justice, or even framework for it.

Without government capital investment declines rapidly toward zero because there is no consistent way to enforce contracts and uphold property rights.

If you do not like government so much go somewhere there is none.

If on the other hand if you accept government is a fundamental requirement for prosperity and security get involved in working towards ensuring your government is not corrupt.

Libertarians complete disregard for governments and assertion that they are all completely corrupt and therefore there is no point in trying to change them is the greatest gift to all authoritarian despots as it grants them the perfect apathetic citizens who will not fight against corrupt government.

102 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 5 Oct

The people who cheer brutal detainments and civil rights violations by ICE are falling into the same primitive mindset as the people cheering Charlie Kirk's death, albeit at a lower level.

That being said, I do not doubt that the willingness to do violence is stronger on the left right now. I think it is a matter of time until we see an ICE officer get assassinated

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

The US is in decline. Its extraordinary privilege is under threat. It has squandered its wealth and power while China has come to dominate global trade in manufactured goods, commodities and infrastructure. Dominant nations feel confident of their culture and tolerate even exploit immigration. Nations less secure in their position, as the USA is in reality now, naturally and quite reasonably resist the cultural dilution that immigration can trend toward. Trump understands this, and that most US voters don't. Thus the problem needs to be both obfuscated and dealt with. Immigration is both a powerful means to gain support and a valid thing to act on in terms of managing the complex problems the US faces. By dividing and ruling Trump sets the agenda and narrative and the left are on the back foot. But the decline of US power is not going to be turned around easily and there is risk of internal divisions crippling any attempt. 'One Battle After Another' is an interesting fictional exploration of the issue of immigration and the wider divisions now evident in the US.

202 sats \ 4 replies \ @Lux 5 Oct

my constitutional rights as a US citizen

What an oxymoron. US citizens are NOT 'we the people' and have nothing with 'the' constitution

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

I grew up quite close to the Canada-US border. A person who owned property within 5 or 10 miles of the border got arrested for shining a light at an ICE helicopter circling above their house for hours one night.

What would you have done if it was tour property?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Lux 5 Oct

If you are a US citizen, it doesn't matter. You are a foreigner to the original states. Your only right is to not be deported

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

I have no right to my children?

I have no right to defend myself?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 5 Oct

as a citizen you have no rights. Only privileges. You renounce to your rights when you declare yourself a citizen. #512296 Lux was posting here on SN a lot of good information about this stuff, but many people didn't paid attention to them: here is the "collection" #586916

66 sats \ 5 replies \ @justin_shocknet 5 Oct

Innocent people get arrested/detained all the time for all sorts of things, always have, and has 0 to do with ICE or immigration... that's literally why courts exist. You can't have trials on the sidewalk.

If this is a new concern to you then it's manufactured, if it's not a new concern then perhaps reflect on why it's an emergent human behavior for millenia.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

There is the definition of probable cause to deal with.

My presence in an area in most cases should not count. I feel that they are expanding the reach of probable cause.

102 sats \ 3 replies \ @justin_shocknet 5 Oct

Probable cause definition includes specific locations, that's not new.

There's no shortage of lawfare happening, if there was a challenge avenue there that fruit would already have been picked.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

I suppose that makes sense. But where does that leave me? Keep my head down and hope it doesn't happen to me?

154 sats \ 1 reply \ @justin_shocknet 5 Oct

Each situation requires its own awareness.

I'm near the border, an area that's always been wide open and thus became a corridor, so is now increasingly policed by feds. It hasn't changed anything for me, if anything I'm glad they're around to balance things out because I trust the feds more than the state police under our current governor.

I've always needed a drivers license to go to town, I'd need to renew that license next year REAL ID or not.

I choose not to reside in a communal property like multi-family housing, not because of ICE, but because I can't control other people living on top of me. I can control who is on my property.

I do my best to not go to stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people.

My kids do not go to public schools because I can't fire the whole staff.

I control what I can control, the rest is a matter of providence.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fenix 5 Oct

I appreciate you to share this. Helps me to think about my future goal.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Oct

Has anyone seen 'One Battle After Another' ?

7 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 5 Oct

No, what is it?

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Oct

Its a very recent movie set in a near future dystopian USA where immigrants are hunted by the military. Inspired by a 1990 Thomas Pynchon novel called 'Vineland'. Where protest against the government is responded to with bullets. Where the government serves a small elite of very wealthy corporate cronies. Where everyone is tracked via the location of their phone...

Not far from the present really?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt30144839/

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 5 Oct

The root problem is taxation, freebies, and public property instead of private property. Also the enfringement of freedom of association. Thing is, we never discuss the base issues at play. It's all surface level. If a state has the monopoly of violence they should at seek to protect the rights of their subjects. Yet, they don't.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

If you don't like government/tax then go somewhere there is none and see how you like it.

But you won't will you, because you are not insane and/or suicidal, are you?

Footnotes