Need NO-BS advice on Multi-Sig Custody from Stacker News \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Need NO-BS advice on Multi-Sig Custody from Stacker News

2211 sats \ 10k boost \ 19 comments \ @anon 19h bitcoin

Hi Stacker News, I am making this post anon for obvious reasons.

I am running a 2 of 3 multisig for Bitcoin custody. So far here is my custody setup: One key at a primary, long-term residence. One key at a residence I rent. Another key in a private safe deposit box, geographically distributed, in a stable Western country (oxymoron I know).

This works fine however I feel like I don't want or need to rent this particular residence anymore. It is expensive and I find myself renting it primarily to keep a private key safe... which is ridiculous.

Or is it?????

Instead, to reduce costs and complexity, I am considering changing my multisig setup: One key at a primary, long-term residence. One key at a private, safe deposit box in a stable Western country. One key at a private safe deposit box in another stable Western country (a different one so it's geographically distributed).

Which, aside from having the hardware signers available to sign a transaction without the backup seed phrases... (I use different hardware signers from different manufacturers) means that I would have 2 of 3 keys essentially with "3rd parties" in safe deposit boxes. And 3rd parties are a custody no-no.

So I shouldn't do that... I guess?

Where I frankly get hung-up on what I should do... and the whole custody setup is the idea around "third parties."

I have a landlord where I rent (currently). There is a 'maintenance guy' who I presume has a master key to enter apartments in the event of an emergency (fire or flood) and if I run out for milk or cheese... it is possible a burglar could break in and steal something.

Or there could be a fire god-forbid... in which case my seed phrase could be 'unrecoverable' so what would I do in that case?

Someone bigger or stronger than me could prevent me from accessing the 'rented residence' or someone could access it without my consent if they really wanted to and I don't know if I could stop them especially if I weren't present.

As unlikely as these things are, I have to contend with the fact that they are a possibility.

A safe deposit box on the other hand is at least a "secure place"... from burglars or fire but it's not mine either. I am introducing other risks by having a company or business "hold" a multisig seed phrase, even if they don't know about it and other than having the hardware signers it is possible the 3rd party could prevent my having access to the keys if they really wanted to.

But there is no "maintenance guy" with an access key, and the risk of fire/flood is extremely low... and I am "protected from myself..." right?

And I do have the 'hardware signer' with a key after all?

So is 1 of 3 safe deposit boxes the maximum I should accept? Is 2 of 3 too much? Even if I have some backup signers?

I could continue with what I am currently doing: One key at a residence long-term One key at a residence I rent One key in a rented safe-deposit box

However a really nice safe deposit box would be much cheaper and allow me to stack more sats long-term. Why should I pay more and stack fewer sats? Stacking sats is the goal right?

On the other hand, I will pay and do whatever is necessary to protect the keys. I am not one to 'pick up pennies' in front of a steam-roller... and NYKNYC.

But there's gotta be a better solution. I'm just trying to manage risk and cost after all Bitcoin is the greatest asset of our generation.

Paying way less for another safe deposit box that has nothing to do with crypto instead of renting an apartment is much, much cheaper. But it carries its own unique risks too.

What does Stacker News advise? What should I do? Thanks in advance.

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200 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 17h

What are you protecting against?

217 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 18h

Since the 3rd key is useless on its own I don't think it warrants its own paid storage in the form of an extra residence or deposit box, particularly if you're still concerned with ensuring your own physical access.

there could be a fire

Could keep the key in a vehicle or geocached underground elsewhere on the property so its separated from the structure. (special archival grade dvd-r or steel product)

Could also be encrypted and stored in-cloud, you already have to remember where these things are are and how to use them so an encryption phrase is lateral lift.

Could also replace it with a brain-key in lieu of encrypting, a phrase you can hash to make a seed can obviate the concern of storage corruption.

Or all of the above for redundancy.

The advantage of 2:3 over 2:2 is the 3rd key can be differentiated paranoia instead of duplicated.

There's also companies like Iron Mountain etc that do physical archive storage, similar trade-offs to the safe deposit box but may offer preferable obscurity and potentially more pseudoanonimity via using a company name.

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 19h

my preference

one key with me wherever I am
one key with someone i trust far away
one key in a safety deposit box

i make metal backups of each key which i store with the remote hardware wallets. if you're insecure with 2-of-3, it may be time to consider 3-of-5.

you can also store the third key with a collaborative custodian, which is cheaper than a second residence, but that has its own tradeoffs.

755 sats \ 13 replies \ @DarthCoin 19h

The important question is to ask for WHO is multisig useful and necessary:

for big companies with multiple individuals managing the funds
for absolute paranoia individuals that do not have any trust in themselves. And making it even more complicated will add even more paranoia until their brains will explode.

Keep it simple and don't let multisig influencers to play with your brains.

Here is an example of simple things: #1260936

Thank you for your attention in this matter

2 sats \ 0 replies \ @SevenOfNine 19h

100% this. Don't overcomplicate things, OP.

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @anon 19h

Thank you DarthCoin I like multisig because there is no 'single point of failure' and I can have multiple keys generated from different hardware wallets. So it is harder for one of them to cheat me or steal from me.

It also is easier (I think) for family to recover my Bitcoin in the event of my death. They can have a key and 'get another key' from another party in the event I died.

I am not comfortable having multiple copies of a single seed phrase because I don't want someone to find one. The more copies the easier it is for someone to find one... and that is unacceptable.

I fear myself (a little) and I fear the government. I don't know what the perfect solution is.

76 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin 19h

See those 12 peaks in far distance? Each one contain one word of a seed. I put one word on each peak. Nobody will be able to find it. Now the important question: how much time those peaks will stand? Almost eternity.

I fear myself (a little) and I fear the government.

Then bitcoin is not for you.

2 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 17h

Nobody will be able to find it.

Including you?

2 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 17h

I live in the mountains, remember?

2 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 17h

I also remember that you almost fell down one haha

66 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 17h

If I die, I die, so be it. Each one we find our destiny when is the right time.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h

To be free is to choose risk of death over slavery.

reply on another page

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 19h

I don't understand Edit: I respect you but I don't understand your perspective.

The government is not our friend, and is frankly totally opposed to Bitcoin's original purpose: separating money from state.

Everything the government has done (so far) has been in opposition to Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. The EU is totally opposed and even the Americans haven't removed the Cap Gains Taxes on Bitcoin.

In my opinion if they really understood it they would try to crush it

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 19h

this one you understand?

If you do not understand even this simple steganography, then you will never understand how multisig works.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 19h

There are only a few people in the world who could/would know how to put a Bitcoin private key inside an image. Truly one in many millions

Edit: I understand how multisig works. I have used it and I like it. But for most people balancing cost and complexity is not that simple. NYKNYC and all that but there is the real world also.

6 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 19h

Truly one in many millions

LOL are you serious? Where did you lived until now? Under a rock? Even a kid can do it with few clicks with multiple tools available:

... and many others FOSS

If that is so hard for you, read here: #1260936 - even a postal card sent to your mom can contain 12 words seed.

Also another example: I made over 7000 posts on nostr. Inside those posts there are 12 words of a seed. Find them if you can.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h

Well said by the man dwelling in sackcloth citadel sometimes gets it 100% right.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @000w2 14h

You could use coldcard seed xor to split up the backups further: https://seedxor.com/

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h

You sound paranoid. Just use electrums cold storage. Learn to use Linux as all other OS are inherently compromised. Only use Linux for all serious Bitcoin computing work. Maybe set up two or three cold wallets if it helps...to distribute risk and maybe provide a decoy wallet to surrender in the worst case scenario - with SFA in it! Secure seed phrases well. Keep It Simple And relax...understanding freedom comes at a price and with some risk. There is no absolute risk free self custody solution but simplicity and discretion are powerful strategies. Self custody based monetary freedom is only for the brave few who are prepared to carry some risk- otherwise go back to being a fiat debt slavery peon.