I'd like to hear some perspective on possible risks of coinjoin. I'm hesitant to coinjoin my cold storage (all KYC) because I'm worried something will happen similar to what happened with Tornado Cash and coinjoined BTC will be blacklisted from exchanges or I'll have a hard time using it. I know that assumes that I will sell it on an exchange someday (who knows). I think I just don't have enough perspective on it all and would like to hear your thoughts/opinions/arguments.
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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @bataroot 16 Feb 2023
I guess it's normal to be hesitant, it all depends on risk acceptance and what you think Bitcoin should be for humanity.
I personally think that Bitcoin is all about the separation of money and state and that it is nobody's business to know what I own or what I want to buy.
So anything I can do to boycott governments and non-elected global entities' actions to get rid of anonymous ways of transferring value, I will do whatever the risks.
I am fully prepared for a world where I will not sell for FIAT and only exchange with a like-minded circle of trusted people.
All that starts with making blockchain analytics companies' work more difficult, and the tools we have today are conjoining protocols.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @snakedye 16 Feb 2023
It only works when everyone does it.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @timechain 16 Feb 2023
Coinjoin an amount that you know you won't need to sell. Also, it will be a while before exchanges do that, or at least I think so.
Exchanges are slowly adding Lightning support also, and when you deposit with that, you end up with different UTXOs, so that's a way of dealing with coinjoined coins too.
Unless you live in Europe, they aren't trying that hard to track you, they just want to know how much you buy to tax you.
But seriously there are things you gotta be careful about with the uncoinjoined ones. You don't want to spend a small amount of the uncoinjoined from a large UTXO causing that person to know the extent of what you HODL. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read up on that.
Good luck!
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 17 Feb 2023
Yes, we talked about breaking up into smaller UTXOs in another comment, definitely the way to go.
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10 sats \ 14 replies \ @sudonaka 16 Feb 2023
Ethereum and Bitcoin are completely different. There is no legal basis for restricting what you do with your personal property (Bitcoin). While there are many laws governing what you can do when selling or buying securities (Eth). This legal precedent is enforceable with the weakness of proof of stake allowing centralized entities to control eth validations, while the proof of work mechanism prevents this kind of censorship on Bitcoin.
In the dark future, the network will shift entirely to p2p and there will be no need to obtain more US dollars.
In the good future, any attempt to censor Bitcoin will simply result in the censor removing themselves from the network, to their own detriment.
Think of it this way, in the future, do you think anyone in their right mind will refuse the opportunity to exchange their fiat paper for your Sats?
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0 sats \ 13 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 16 Feb 2023
Thanks for your perspective. As far as the legal basis, I don't think that will stop governments from making our lives difficult if they feel threatened by bitcoin. They're happy to make things up so they can maintain control.
Regarding your future scenarios, I agree that those are possible many years down the line, but I think there's a lot that will happen between now and then. That's what I'm worried about.
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10 sats \ 11 replies \ @Eximpius 16 Feb 2023
They cant stop you from “using it”. They might talk a couple of exchanges from letting you “cash out”, but you can still spend it and use it everywhere else. You wont even need to “cash out” in the future. Hell you dont need to now honestly. Stop thinking in fiat
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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 16 Feb 2023
So let's say my mom gets in a car accident and I need to access my money quickly. Hospitals don't accept bitcoin yet, so I would need to sell some on an exchange. Let's say coinjoin is blacklisted and I can't easily cash out. Sure I could get some amazon giftcards on robosats, but I don't think a hospital will accept those either. By living in the real world, we still have to think about fiat, like it or not. We don't live in bitcoin land yet.
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20 sats \ 5 replies \ @Eximpius 17 Feb 2023
Also, you can easily use lightning to get cash in seconds with strike and cash app. Run your own node, its easy. Wanna get cash, open a channel with what you need to pay your hospital, send to cash app or strike, instantly have cash you can send to a bank account. Easy peasy with no worry about a past coinjoin.
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 17 Feb 2023
As long as you live in a country with strike or cash app.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eximpius 17 Feb 2023
Plus revoult app and many others.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Eximpius 17 Feb 2023
Fold……
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eximpius 17 Feb 2023
Well they are in the US which has the strictest BS when it comes to exchanges lol. So if you dont live in the US, its even easier for you to use an exchange and cash out lmao.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 18 Feb 2023
Japan is stricter.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @franzap 16 Feb 2023
This is a good point. I would look at ways to provide plausible deniability by moving the funds through Lightning or even an ecash mint (vs a coinjoin). If done properly once you swap back to onchain your new UTXOs will be private and not tainted as coinjoin.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 17 Feb 2023
Right, so there are a few other ways of protecting your privacy without coinjoin.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Eximpius 17 Feb 2023
Why would you get gift cards off robosats? Lol you can easily get cash on robosats, hodl hodl, bisq….
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 17 Feb 2023
Yes, by going through a third party...
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @sudonaka 16 Feb 2023
Using Bitcoin is what removes that kind of worry for me. What concerns me is a bank that can restrict my use of wires and payments to an arbitrary daily/weekly limit.
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10 sats \ 2 replies \ @t4es5ter5 16 Feb 2023
My opinion is to be as transparent as possible. If you want to avoid taxes there are better solutions like moving to another country (like i did). If you gonna buy stuff with bitcoin in real estate (like i did) compliance will need to know source of funds. At that point you will be glad you have not mixed your coins. Just my two sats. Good luck.
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5 sats \ 1 reply \ @034678ffb8 OP 16 Feb 2023
Thanks, these are my thoughts as well, but though I might be missing something. I can understand wanting to coinjoin smaller amounts for anonymity, but I feel like it might hurt me in the long run with larger amounts.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @t4es5ter5 16 Feb 2023
Unfortunately I have no experience with coinjoin. Hope others can give you more input.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @mili 16 Feb 2023
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @034678ffb8 OP 16 Feb 2023
Thanks for your perspective. As far as spending goes, I agree with your method of making some hops, particularly because spending also reveals the change. So, if I were to buy a coffee from my (imaginary) wallet with 100 BTC in it, it would very easily show how much I have in my wallet. If I were to move out a few million sats for spending, it wouldn't reveal as much.
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