For a long time, I thought em-dashes on Stacker News were a dead AI giveaway. Because on my keyboard, I can only make an em-dash if I use the alt code ALT + 0151. Yet today I saw a post by someone who i'm pretty sure is a human using an em-dash.
Are there keyboards that let you do em-dash easily? Maybe some international keyboards? Is there another method I don't know of?
And question to y'all: Do you type with em-dashes normally?
long hold on -
But why would someone bother?
if someone wrote a piece but wanted it to look like ai—reverse psychology
*taps head
alt+shift+-=—I usually just copy paste whatever the AI tells me to say. 🤷
that emoji is a dead giveaway too, you dirty bot
shrug is? I love shrug
Why does AI use something that human writers generally don’t?
training material isn't only comment sections of social media... print media are where the different dash types originated, and probably get weighed more authoritatively in lots of training datasets.
I get that. I guess a different way to phrase it would be "Why were the training materials so biased towards use of this thing that it immediately became a signal of AI creation?"
Honestly, I don't think it's a bad thing, and if I were employed in one of the providers, I would be lobbying at any opportunity to maintain the human-obvious fingerprint of LLM output... it's like finding a catchy name for a new soft drink that works well within the music of the local dialect, although is obviously a foreign word. It advertises itself.
I don't really care one way or the other. I just find these methodological issues interesting.
It was probably trained on "format" content that does use them
I'm guessing that a lot of word processors like MS Word will autocorrect a single dash to an em-dash
Why not just use a regular old fashioned dash?
Which looks better-this-or—this?
Firstly, doesn't the aesthetic consideration depend upon the context?
However, to answer your question directly: I simply don't like how the em dash looks in the common usage of setting aside a clause; it always feels like it is drawing too much emphasis or attention to the two immediately enclosing words, rather than separating entire clauses... also, ideally, I'd want nesting (like you get from parentheses)))
I end up overusing commas for that, because I do most of my rambling from keyboard layouts, where only two punctuation marks are first-class citizens like the letters, and the remainder all require more effort.
Short dash is good for me. I feel like the longer one should just be ---
double dash is a sure sign of humanity
Who knew there were so many dashes....
hyphen = -
Figure Dash (U+2012) = ‒
Small En Dash (U+FE58) = ﹘
En Dash (U+2013) = –
Light Double Dash (U+254C) = ╌
Heavy Double Dash (U+254D) = ╍
Light Triple Dash (U+2504) = ┄
Heavy Triple Dash (U+2505) = ┅
Light Quadruple Dash (U+2508) = ┈
Heavy Quadruple Dash (U+2509) = ┉
Em Dash (U+2014) = —
Two Em Dash (U+2E3A) = ⸺
Three Em Dash (U+2E3B) = ⸻
Don't forget minus sign −
Yes, I frequently use em dashes ("—"). My keyboard layout provides easy access to a lot of useful symbols, e.g., I also frequently use the actual quotation marks (“”), apostrophes (’), non-breaking thin space (" "), ellipsis ("…"), the multiplication symbol (×), some arrows (⇐⇔⇒↦), superscript (¹²³) and subscript (₁₂₃), have access to the lowercase Greek alphabet (αβγδεφ…), and a number of other useful math symbols (e.g., ∞∃∫∀√¬∨∧∥Σℕℝℤℚ).
What kind of keyboard do you have lol?
I have an Ergodox Ez and use the Neo2 Layout. It's an ergonomically optimized keyboard layout for German, English and programming. I linked its project website in my above comment where you can see a graphic for the six layers of the tenkeyless section of the keyboard.
I frequently use them on SN, but I'm so technically illiterate that I just copy-paste them from other websites.
(and no, I'm def not an AI! SAVE THE EM DASH, BITCHES!)
If you're just copy and pasting quotes, I don't think that counts as using the em-dash for yousrelf.
I think @denlillaapan meant actually pasting the individual dash.
yes, exactly. Ctrl-c, ctrl-v is usually faster/easier than figuring out some word code or command
I think I've seen it as autocorrect in MS Word, maybe some iPhones if you leave all the fancy spyware on.
Personally I just use a normal dash.
I use double dash
--for long dashes.Hmm, I don't think my iPhone has ever autocorrected it for me, at least not on Stacker News.
I prefer the rustic appeal of the double en -- makes me feel like I'm a lumberjack or something.
The ASCII hyphen is not either em nor en dash; ironically enough, by definition, both coincide with it when you consider the typical low-resolution, low-effort fixed-width fonts. The definition of the usual suspects is simply that the dash is the same width as the letter, lowercase en or lowercase em.
you need to set it up in the txt replacement settings
Just tested on my Macbook:
--autocorrects into em-dash—(\u2014)<alt> -produces en-dash–(\u2013)I've noticed one of my contacts use em[1], and I should bring this point up next time I have a conversation with him our of earshot of Siri; I know that he likes improving his privacy in principle, although unfortunately inertial demands of the hustle have often prevented him from digging through each new technology... it's really sickening how efficiently surveillance has been deployed with dark patterns and consent that wasn't even manufactured, but rather considered obvious[2].
sorry, I couldn't resist the pun... I could feel it creeping up as I worked my way down the comments. ↩
I have the hardest time with the stylometry data, needed for personalization of autocorrection and word suggestions; ultimately, technology should not interfere with self-expression, so it should be easier for people to express themselves using their own language quirks... although I forced myself to disable personalization in the last time that I customized a smartphone keyboard, and anyone whose read enough of my verbiage on SN and elsewhere will immediate appreciate how often I struggle against this decision. ↩
LLMs use a lot of em dashes (—) because the data they're trained on — metric fuck tons of internet writing — uses a lot of em dashes.
And many of us continue using em dashes just as always — because why the fuck should we change how we write just because of LLMs?
do you use em-dashes in your regular writing?
Yes
how? long-press mobile keyboard? alt-code? autocorrect?
at the risk of getting proven wrong by anyone who actually works in the industry: nope, you're wrong.
the sources of em dashes more likely to override low-effort human rambling are publications; either old print media, or PDFs of academic journals. professional editors will usually opt for correct usage, regardless of whether it "smells like AI", and the result is that the "elements of style"[1] are self-perpetuating.
I recommend skimming the infamous text, despite not liking several of the rules; deliberately rejecting outdated rules enables purposeful evolution, rather than spontaneous drift. ↩
I never use them. I'm sure there is a time when it is proper grammar to use them, but I just use dashes/hyphens/whatever the fuck they're called.
wow you know how to prompt an AI, you're such a genius
If only — the AI still does most of the work.