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Firefish - Bitcoin-backed loans
40 sats \ 13 comments \ @BubeniCZECH 20 Feb 2023 bitcoin
Have you heard of the firefish.io project? These are loans secured by bitcoin executed directly on the bitcoin blockchain using a multisig transaction. There is no third party to handle your bitcoins, but you still need some level of trust in the oracle for the price, or in a liquidator if you default or the value drops below the safe collateral.
Would you use your bitcoin as collateral for a loan in this way?
The service is only available in the pre-access phase for now, but I like the solution.
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10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Privilege 20 Feb 2023
If you use Bitcoin as collateral I think you don’t get what is Bitcoin a why is so important to self custody, if you would know in 10 years is a million per coin would you give to someone else just because you want to stack more with fiat generated by a loan against your Bitcoin? Unfortunately there is no free lunch, but you can always work a bit more maybe for only one year doing an extra job or overtime e keep stacking with the same result. I think is never a good idea having a loan using an asset that can drop 80% personal view.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BubeniCZECH OP 20 Feb 2023
High volatility is to be expected, but I don't think we're looking at another 80% drop now.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Privilege 20 Feb 2023
Definitely not now, but from ATH anyway we are still tight to the stock market and we don’t know wen we are decoupling, let’s not forget that 2022 you got inverted bonds and -22% stock market, credit cart ATH vs saving ATL, there is a war and energy crises, we live as everything is fine quite in a bull market and if you seen the Nasdaq we far from a drop of even 40% can go 60 also 80. I haven’t seen people loosing jobs and I haven’t seen the housing bubble. Maybe we are going to have a soft landing but I don’t believe cause the FED is not able to rank the interest rate with all this debt. Don’t confuse me I’m accumulating as there is no tomorrow, but I have dry power. This is the shittest macro I ever seen I wound be surprised
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10 sats \ 9 replies \ @DarthCoin 20 Feb 2023
This is a special chapter in Bitcoin economy. There’s a lot of controversy about these practices. And all comes from GREED.
Here you have a very good explanation of how this financial market DeFi works, to have a good view about the mechanism.
But let’s dive a bit more into this aspect and see what Bitcoin can do, or is trying to do.
Greed is a characteristic of human behavior that could not be eradicate, but at least controlled at a low level. Each wo/man have a desire and attraction to “have more”, it is in our genes to desire more even if we can’t afford it with what we have or can do. And this come from long time ago, from the deep human history. But in the last century it was accelerated and even became a “religion”. People will do whatever they can to get more stuff, even no-necessity/util stuff, just hoarding so others don’t. and this greed was creating a huge system of lending/borrowing of money that people do not have and even cannot create, perpetuating a forever debt. Practically we are living in a debt slavery world. People are buying all kind of stuff, with money that they do not have it.
Bitcoin come to fix this paradigm. You cannot spend more bitcoins than you have in your own control. It cannot be created more than 21 Millions. FOREVER.
So what “smart guys” are doing now? EXACTLY what banksters did in the 17th century: offering to those gold owners, a place to deposit their valuable gold coins, into a bank vault, in exchange for a piece of paper, an IOU of x amount of gold. Now they are offering digital platforms for Bitcoin owners, to lend their BTC for a % of interest. But nobody ask: “from where is coming this %of BTC interest, if will not be created more BTC?”.
To sustain this aspect, please watch these two amazing videos (one is a Spanish movie about a guy that won the lottery and one is an animated documentary about debt). Both documentaries are a must watch.
Concursante – Spanish movie (EN subs), with a guy that won the lottery but he entered into total debt, just because of the evil system.
The American Dream – animated documetary about how the american dream is actually a debt nightmare.
So yes, we’ve already seeing these “greed platforms” that are pushing back people to the debt system: Ledn, Blockfi, Nexo, Celsius, Lend Hodl etc.
These platforms are not doing anything different than the old banksters of 17th century: are taking users BTC as collateral and lend to others shitcoins. Later they sell the shitcoins (or even fractional reserves) for BTC to pay the interest to the BTC lenders. But this creates a huge pressure into creating even more shitcoins out of thin air. And the system will perpetuate until will collapse, exactly like the actual fiat system.
Michael Saylor say it very clear: he will buy all bitcoins available, will HODL them and later will lend them as collateral to all poor guys that today do not want Bitcoin. In plain sight you have the banksters and billionaires plan: to enslave you again in debt. If you still do not understand that, means that humanity deserve to be forever enslaved by few…
Also another aspect is that these platforms usually end up in scams/hacks/lost funds. Owners greed is so powerful that in the end will make them run with all the money. Happened many times in the past, it will happen again. Why? Because people are dumb and trust these platforms and give them their BTC. Simple as NOT YOUR KEYS = NOT YOUR BITCOINS.
Satoshi created Bitcoin EXACTLY to avoid all these practices and make people think and start SAVING MONEY for later, instead of borrowing more than they can afford. Many will say that this is against advancing in technology and building more new stuff. But I am coming and ask: what are you need for your daily life, basics, to live a simple and healthy life? The answer is simple: energy, food, shelter. So why are we not concentrated into that only?
Why do we need 2-3 cars/ family, why do we need 2-3 houses /family, why do we need 2-3 phones/individual, why do we need to buy stuff and food that we really don’t need it and so on…? We are living in a world full of unnecessary stuff, just for the sake of consumerism.
Bitcoin is changing the mentality of consumerism into mentality of savings. Save today for having tomorrow enough to buy the stuff you really need it. Don’t stretch you legs more than the duvet.
Bitcoin WILL PUMP FOREVER in value! No need for anything else than just HODL and use it when you need it most. More you HODL = more value will have in the future. Do not sell your BTC to billionaires! Is the only way to keep them away!
If you want to risk your money (and is a huge risk in this) for just few % of fake interest (based on fractional reserve), is up to you, but at least I did what I can and warned you about this.
In order to give you more details about these aspects, here you have both sides supporting one or another way. You are the only one that have to choose for yourself. But before that, be very well informed in this matter.
Bitcoin and fiat debt – Saifedean Ammous podcast
FIAT DELENDA EST - @jimmysong presentation at HB2022
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @P2P_bitcoin 21 Feb 2023
Why? Because people are dumb and trust these platforms and give them their BTC. Simple as NOT YOUR KEYS = NOT YOUR BITCOINS.
Just to differentiate between the custodial lenders like the ones you mentioned and Lend at HodlHodl -- Lend at HodlHodl uses a multisig escrow, so the platform alone doesn't have access to the funds (though if the (fiat) lender colludes with HodlHodl, technically then yes -- the platform would then have the power to cheat the borrower.)
And just like with this Firefish ... the price oracle used with Lend at HodlHodl adds third party risk as well.
One thing that HodlHodl has, which I'm not sure if Firefish has something similar, is their "Doomsday software" for use to recover the escrowed BTC collateral should the platform go down or no longer exist.
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 21 Feb 2023
There is no difference in the end. Is just promoting the use of shitcoind, stablecoins, fiat. Because who is borrowing is taking a form of fiat (stablecoins are fiat), no bitcoin. It's impossible to borrow more bitcoins with bitcoins as collateral.
So all this crazy shit of lending is actually keeping alive fiat.
Bitcoin is the way around of anything is fiat. You save more bitcoins if you want something that cost you more than you have. There is nothing wrong with that. It incentive people to save and do not spend on crsppy things.
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0 sats \ 6 replies \ @BubeniCZECH OP 20 Feb 2023
You're not responding to my post at all.
  1. Debt in itself is not a bad thing. The problem is when debt creates new money. The oldest written records that exist are promissory notes. Money has always been lent, and a functioning loan market is good for the economy as long as the money lent is money accumulated through savings and not newly created.
  2. firefish is not some centralized platform that offers interest on bitcoin and prints shitcoins against it. It's just a protocol that connects supply to demand and allows you to take out a loan in fiat that is secured by bitcoin. That's what multisig transactions directly on bitcoin are for. The idea is not to make money on my bitcoin, but to get a loan in fiat so I don't have to sell bitcoin, or to get interest on fiat by lending it against a liquid pledge of bitcoin.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 20 Feb 2023
OMG... fiat lover and keynesian. You have much to learn...
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0 sats \ 4 replies \ @BubeniCZECH OP 20 Feb 2023
Sorry, but money was borrowed even when people paid in gold. The loan market is not dependent on fiat and has nothing to do with Keynes.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 20 Feb 2023
oh another one that didn't studied well... Let's talk in 5 years again.
https://i.postimg.cc/X7P2YC5q/told-you-so.jpg
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @BubeniCZECH OP 20 Feb 2023
The creation of savings and their subsequent investment is a natural behaviour of economic actors. If there were no loans, people with good ideas would not have access to the capital to implement them. There is nothing wrong with borrowing as long as it is preceded by savings and interest is a free-market conflict between supply and demand.
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2 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 20 Feb 2023
Can you force me to borrow from you? Debt = slavery Simple as that.
Don't consume more than you can produce. Life is much simple than you think, with or without lending.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BubeniCZECH OP 20 Feb 2023
Because nobody can force you, it's not slavery. It's a voluntary transaaction, a trade. A loan is a service like any other. That's why it has a price. If you think hard money will kill the loan market, you're wrong.
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