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Where was the first money spent?Where was the first money spent?

Before money was worth anything as money, it was worth something as stuff. This is the famous regression theorem of Ludwig von Mises. Bitcoiners end up talking about it a lot because Mises is one of the grandaddies of Austrian economics and the theorem seems to imply that Bitcoin can't be money.

It starts by asking how it is that people are willing to trade real things for something like money, which seems kind of made up. I'm happy to take money in exchange for my time or my stuff because I'm fairly confident that other people will take the money when I want some of their time or stuff. Mostly, I don't think about it much.

But...if you do think about it, you might ask: if the only reason money has value is because it is money, how did it get to be money? In order to use money, you need to have an idea of what it's worth, but you can only get this idea if someone else is already using it as money. And now we're just going in circles.

This is where regression comes in. Mises says money has value today because it was used as money yesterday. I don't find this very helpful because:

To trace back the value that money has today to that which it had yesterday, the value that it had yesterday to that which it had the day before, and so on, is to raise the question of what determined the value of money in the first place. Mises, The Theory of Money and Credit

No kidding. Rothbard asks our burning question for us:

Does not the fact that this causes partially regress backward in time simply push the unexplained components back further without end? If today’s prices are partly determined by yesterday’s prices, and yesterday’s by those of the day before yesterday, etc., is not the regression simply pushed back infinitely, and part of the determination of prices thus left unexplained?

Mises says, "Don't worry! People only ever use things for money that were already considered valuable, so we'll just go back to when the thing wasn't money and see what is was worth then."

The first value of money was clearly the value which the goods used as money possessed (thanks to their suitability for satisfying human wants in other ways) at the moment when they were first used as common media of exchange. Mises, The Theory of Money and Credit

Apparently, the grand answer provided by the regression theorem is this: money originally gets its value from the thing it's made of and money is only ever made of things that lots of people already want. I don't find this answer very satisfying. When it comes to money, it feels to me like we're not just dealing with a difference of degree (the most saleable good) but instead are talking about a different kind of thing.

It reminds me of another kind of regression problem:

"Who did the first grammar mutant talk to?""Who did the first grammar mutant talk to?"

I wish I could claim this formulation as my own, but, alas, Steven Pinker wrote it. You see where it's headed, though: if evolution works by mutations and extinctions, whichever of our ancestors won the lottery with a language mutation must have had some trouble finding a conversation partner. Linguists have to answer a question of the same nature as Mises: how does what you say when you speak a word get its meaning?

The sound of our words is somewhat arbitrary. It doesn't seem like there's a reason that the sound you make when you mean one thing should be the sound I make when I mean the same thing. Just look at how many languages there are or take a quick look at how people in different places record the sounds animals make (in French, crows say croc?)...if the sounds of different words are arbitrary, how did people learn what they meant?

Regression is the easy answer here: we learned it from our parents. But where did they learn it? From their parents, and their parents before them. But does this not "simply push the unexplained components back further without end" as Rothbard said?

People call this Wallace's Problem because it was Alfred Russel Wallace who formulated a broader version of it in a letter to Darwin:

Natural selection could only have endowed the savage with a brain a little superior to that of an ape whereas he possesses one very little inferior to that of an average member of our learned societies.

Or as another guy put it:

Human language is an embarrassment for evolutionary theory because it is vastly more powerful than one can account for in terms of selective fitness. [David Premack, "Gavagai!" or the future history of the animal language controversy. Cognition, 19 207-296]

Unlike the Austrians, the linguists and biologists don't have a consensus about how to solve their regression. People like Noam Chomsky and Steven Pinker have made entire careers talking about this problem. For a long while, Chomsky's was the leading theory and it pretty much said that once upon a time there was a grammar mutant who happened to provide us with a "Language Acquisition Device" (I guess he's calling it Merge now?). Lately, something like Pinker's Language Instinct gene may be a more popular explanation. I don't find either of them very satisfying as origin stories.

Others have proposed something a little better. Derek Bickerton has a nice story of how people developed language because they had to tell each other about far-off dead animals that made for good scavenging. Or biologists like Madeline Beekman talk about language evolving as a result of our ancestors' tendency to care for their young communally.

Whatever explanation you find most satisfying, it's interesting to compare this regression problem to the one Mises encountered with money: if linguists were Austrians, they might believe that every language must begin with sounds. And no language could exist, except that it started with sounds. And perhaps even that all meaning has its basis in the sounds things make...how else did it get its meaning?

What was Bitcoin's use-value before it was money?What was Bitcoin's use-value before it was money?

Bitcoiners have felt a little awkward around the regression theorem almost from the very beginning. There's a great BitcoinTalk post from 2010 that, with a few mental acrobatics, excuses Bitcoin's regression theorem violations because it emerged in an economy that was already monetized (with plenty of prices to reference):

The essential point is that once exchange can occur between a money (USD) and Bitcoins, providers of goods have a means by which to value Bitcoins as a potential medium of exchange. The money regression is satisfied, because taken back far enough we reach traditional commodity money: BITCOINS -> USD -> MONETIZED GOLD & SILVER [start monetary economy] -> [end barter economy] COMMODITY GOLD & SILVER.

Apparently, when Mises said "no good can be employed for the function of a medium of exchange which at the very beginning of its use for this purpose did not have exchange value on account of other employments," he actually meant "once we've got prices in the market, all bets are off and anything can be money."

Konrad Graf wrote a 2013 post which attempts a more extensive solution to Bitcoin's problem with the regression theorem. He begins by pointing out that Mises didn't propose the regression theorem as a historical observation, but rather as a logical statement:

And all these statements implied in the regression theorem are enounced apodictically as implied in the apriorism of praxeology. It must happen this way. Nobody can ever succeed in construction a hypothetical case in which things were to occur in a different way. Mises, Human Action

In order to use money, people have to be able calculate how much a given money is worth and Mises figured that no one could make such a calculation without a starting point. Hence, the rather strong way of asserting "it must happen this way." The argument doesn't need any historical evidence anymore than the distributive property of multiplication needs evidence. "How else could it work?" If people use something as money, they must have had a starting point for calculating its worth.

"Therefore," allows Graf (even though he does not need to), "the only challenge for the regression theorem/bitcoin relationship is to find any direct-use or direct-exchange value prior to and separable from the emergence of indirect-exchange value."

And so Graf speculates that before Bitcoin had value as money, it had "geek value" or "mystique value" or "curiosity value" -- perhaps "there was some degree of direct value to the relevant hacker-actors just for the sake of creating them." I don't buy it.

Bitcoin is money. Always has been.Bitcoin is money. Always has been.

These regression theorem explanations feel like fancy carnival tricks or elaborate excuses to me. When Satoshi introduced Bitcoin to the world, he wrote:

I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party.

The title of the whitepaper is "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"

It was clearly intended to be money and anyone who reads the whitepaper is hard-pressed to believe that it was something other than money that they were dealing with. Why do we have to pretend that Bitcoin wasn't valued as money from the very start? Well, we have to do it because the regression theorem says it must be so. But -- now I'm going to say something that sounds stupid -- what if we are regressing toward the wrong thing?

I wonder if Mises made a mistake in focusing on the most saleable good aspect of money and trying to trace money's value back to some thing from the land of barter. Perhaps it makes more sense to think of it as a language.

Money is a languageMoney is a language

I'm hardly the first person to notice the similarities between language and money.

Adam Smith thought it probable that the the human propensity to "truck, barter, and exchange one thing for another" was the "necessary consequence of the faculties of reason and speech."

If we should enquire into the principle in the human mind on which this disposition of trucking is founded, it is clearly the natural inclination every one has to persuade. The offering of a shilling, which to us appears to have so plain and simple a meaning, is in reality offering an argument to persuade one to do so and so as it is for his interest. -Lectures on Jurisprudence

You could easily say the same of words and language in general. Why else do we speak them if not to persuade? Nietzsche called trade "the oldest and most original personal relationship that there is, the relationship between buyer and seller, creditor and owner." And Mises said that "Money has thus become an aid that the human mind is no longer able to dispense with in making economic calculations" which sounds a lot like the way Chomsky talks about language as a framework for thought.

Modern Austrian economists carry on this thread. Steven Horwitz said, "Just as we cannot help but think in terms of the words that language provides us, we cannot help but act in the market in terms of the money prices of what we want to exchange." Money is rather more integral than a shiny rock would make you think. Horwtiz continues:

If money is an analog to language, then price is the analog to word. A market price embodies knowledge made available by exchanges through the medium of money, just as a word is knowledge made available by speaking or writing in a language. Therefore, just as a word does not correspond to some objective thought or meaning, so does a price not correspond to some objective quality of the object being bought or sold, or some objectively measurable cost. Prices are socially constructed unintended consequences of our attempts to act purposively within the context of monetary exchange. Words and prices both evolve through their use as "aids to the mind."

I find this a very useful way to think about money. I struggle to reconcile the regression theorem's insistence that money always comes from some valued thing (a most saleable good) with an understanding of value as subjective -- humans value whatever suits their fancy, however suits their fancy. While money may have used goods as a scaffold on which to build itself, goods are no more integral to money than sounds are to language. Humans can communicate with written words or flashes of light, they can use sign-language or ideograms -- and our money can be whatever makes sense to people -- even if it's agreeing on the state of a database every ten minutes on average.

Gold doesn't lie, neither does BitcoinGold doesn't lie, neither does Bitcoin

So why do we use things for money at all? Why not just use words? Umberto Eco pointed out that "the only difference between a coin and a word is that the word can be reproduced without economic effort, while the coin is an irreproducible item." Humans used things like gold as the sounds of this particular money-language because we had no other way to prevent people from lying.

Words are infamously easy to say. But money isn't a very useful language if it isn't connected to the stuff of the world, somehow. Money doesn't require grounding in a commodity's value to set prices, it needs grounding to to achieve scarcity. Before Bitcoin, no one had figured out a way to make irreproducible words, so we had to rely on stuff to do the job for us.

Satoshi wrote an interesting response to that BitcoinTalk post about the regression theorem. He identified that scarcity is really the important thing here:

But if there were nothing in the world with intrinsic value that could be used as money, only scarce but no intrinsic value, I think people would still take up something.

I like this framing of the problem of the regression theorem: it may seem like the we need something that was useful for other reasons to "spark" the value of money, but it's actually that we need scarcity to make money work. People will "take up something" because it's part of what we do.

If money is a language, how does it get a price? Isn't it just a bunch of words? I think the answer is that people just give it a shot. This guy did:

I've been reading Cryptoeconomics again, and this is an attempt to work through some of the ideas in the chapter called "Regression Fallacy" which I am copying below.


Regression FallacyRegression Fallacy

The Regression Theorem relies on the assumption that the first people to value something as a money must do so based on a memory of its prior use value, with the thing eventually obtaining barter utility and finally monetary value. The theorem is invalid based on three internal contradictions.

No good can be employed for the function of a medium of exchange which at the very beginning of its use for this purpose did not have exchange value on account of other employments.

Ludwig Von Mises: Human Action

Notice that the theory does not merely attempt to explain the origin of the money concept, but of anything that can be a money. In other words, if a good does not follow this progression, it is not money.

The theorem contradicts the subjective theory of value upon which the theorem relies. Value is subjective, which implies it can be based on anything, even if objectively that basis appears irrational.

The theorem fails to terminate its regression by not explaining how a person comes to value something for its original utility. One must assume (not remember) something will be useful if nobody has ever attempted to use it. This assumption of utility is the first valuation, which remains subjective. The first valuation of a thing, like all after, can be for any reason, including its utility as a money.

Given a preexisting concept of money, it has been suggested that anticipation of being a money is sufficient to satisfy the theorem. In other words the money does not need to follow the progression in actual practice. In this case, given a preexisting concept of money, anything can begin as money. This interpretation renders the theorem tautological - anything that people value as money can be money. In other words, it reduces to subjective first value.

The theorem is actually based on empirical observation of monetary evolution. Yet the rational economic theory on which is based, and the theorem itself, explicitly rejects empiricism.

All these statements implied in the regression theorem are enounced apodictically as implied in the apriorism of praxeology. It must happen this way. Nobody can ever succeed in construction a hypothetical case in which things were to occur in a different way.

One of many problems with empirical economics is that new observations can invalidate previous conclusions. Bitcoin has done so to this theorem. It can clearly be observed that Satoshi intended to create a money, for its first use as money.

The idea is a reasonable empirical theory on the evolution of the concept of money, but invalid as a rational theorem to distinguish money from non-money. Money is distinguished by certain behaviors expressed by people. Concluding that something is a money consists of observing those behaviors, a strictly empirical method.

225 sats \ 6 replies \ @kepford 2h
I struggle to reconcile the regression theorem's insistence that money always comes from some valued thing (a most saleable good) with an understanding of value as subjective -- humans value whatever suits their fancy, however suits their fancy.

Here's how I reconcile it.

  1. Valued by who? Everyone? Or just some.
  2. Saleable to who? Everyone at once when it is created or discovered? No.

How long did it take for gold to become a money? Was it always a money or was this discovered?

Was bitcoin created to be money? Yeah, as you say it is hard to read the whitepaper and argue that it wasn't. But that doesn't mean it actually is money. But it does mean one person believed it or at least sold it that way. Other believed it as well. More and more believe it now but it isn't a general medium of exchange yet because not enough people believe it is money. Most have no clue. Others see it as a digital commodity / speculation only. It is that as well I would argue.

Bitcoin did have other utilities outside of money as well and still does. Specifically the PoW that enforces digital scarcity by the use of energy to protect the blockchain from rewriting. Solving the double spend problem was an innovation. Once could argue that these are needed for digital money but not ONLY digital money.

I'm probably out of my depth here but doesn't that all make sense? Am I missing your point? You bring up good questions either way though.

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It only needs to be valued by one person to develop an exchange rate.

Personally, I think the Regression Theorem (applied to money) is a pretty weak theory.

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169 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford 1h

Indeed. One person. I wish Mises, and Hayek at least were taught in school. I exposed my sons to them because we did homeschool them for part of their education.

On that topic. People often fail to recognize how much influence they have on their kids. Even if you can't afford to homeschool you can augment their education. It just takes effort and time. We like to make things all or nothing but moving the needle even a little can have a big impact.

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Totally. A phrase I like to use is just "what side of the hill are you on" when people are struggling to decide between two extremes. It's meant to show them that you don't need to go to the extreme, you just need to figure out what direction to start moving.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 1h

Indeed. Staying put is often the best way to die. Move and re-evaluate. Maybe you moved the wrong way but staying put is seldom the answer. I think many are far to fearful.

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132 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 2h
One could argue that these are needed for digital money but not ONLY digital money.

Good point. I'm not trying to say there are no other uses for whatever bitcoin is, but that some people valued bitcoin only/first for being money -- and, in the case of the early adopters, that this is a reasonable claim.

How long did it take for gold to become a money? Was it always a money or was this discovered?

I believe my position (although I don't think I fully expressed this) is that money existed before gold. That's an absurd statement, so perhaps I should rephrase it: money is something that humans developed independent of things like gold, they just anchored it to gold or shells or whatever because it provided scarcity.

I think this could be extended to say that gold coins or shells or nails are stablewords?

If money is a language, a way of communicating and "incorporate inchoate knowledge that we can't even articulate to ourselves" (#1426333), the way we peg them to reality is through some sort of scarcity. We need to pin our words down so they can't be thrown around without connection to reality. We have to make them into stablewords. This used to e mostly via physical objects. But Bitcoin changed the game.

(A title using stablewords would have been good, but I couldn't figure out a nice turn of phrase)

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102 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 1h
I'm not trying to say there are no other uses for whatever bitcoin is, but that some people valued bitcoin only/first for being money -- and, in the case of the early adopters, that this is a reasonable claim.

It is a reasonable claim and I agree with it.

money existed before gold.

Of course it did. I don't think that is absurd at all.

I love the title btw.

I tell my friends that seem to think money is evil that its a technology. But I like language too. Not sure I can explain it well though. Not before they doze off. Money is a tool (technology) to make exchange easier and more functional.

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Why do we have to pretend that Bitcoin wasn't valued as money from the very start?

This is very pedantic, but it's entirely possible for it to have been valued as potential money before it became actual money. After all, bitcoin served none of the functions of money prior to that first exchange, and yet, people did invest effort into acquiring it before then.

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This was another thing satoshi said:

Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you've suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some)

And I'm pretty sure I've heard the same argument from others. But to me, valuing something as potential money seems the same as valuing it as money. How would you say such a distinction helps us think about it?

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The key thing that needs to be explained isn't why people started swapping certain stuff for other stuff, it's why are they swapping that amount of stuff for that amount of other stuff: i.e. Why 10,000BTC for 2 pizzas? Why not 1BTC for 5 pizzas?

The initial exchange rate comes from the perceived value of the two goods. In the case of commodity monies, we base that in the use value of the commodity. As you note, though, bitcoin had no other use value, so we need something else to explain why it had the perceived value that it did. Doing so will also explain why people expended effort for bitcoin before it had any exchange value for other goods.

Imagine bitcoin had failed prior to Pizza Day. We certainly wouldn't say it had been money, right? People did expend effort to acquire it, though. That means it had economic value and we could calculate the implied exchange rate of bitcoin for that labor.

My thinking is that those nerds were willing to work for bitcoin on the chance that it became money someday, not because it was money immediately. That means it's economic value was the value it would have should it become money multiplied by the probability that it becomes money and then discounted by the expected time it would take to become money.

As it proved itself from a technical standpoint, that probability increased and it became more valuable. Then, based on that initial value, some test exchanges for goods are made, starting the process of price discovery.

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it's why are they swapping that amount of stuff for that amount of other stuff

God point. I'm saying the initial exchange rate can be a wild guess. You can see this if you read lazlo's thread. He later asks:

So, I'd say he was just guessing at the exchange rate and possibly he could have done it for less or more, but that this doesn't matter. He didn't need to reference some pre-existing use value of bitcoin.

I don't mean to use the anecdote as a a rule (besides, someone in the thread that same day says that he could sell his 10,000 btc for $41 on bitcoinmarket.com, so there seems to have already been a price anyway).

I maintain, though, that humans can establish a market price without reference to any previous price or use-value. I do not agree with Mises' "it must happen" argument.

Imagine bitcoin had failed prior to Pizza Day. We certainly wouldn't say it had been money, right?

I disagree with this. I think we'd call it a failed attempt to create money. I don't think we'd call it something else (eg. a collectible). Esperanto is not a very useful language, but if you look at it, it's hard to say it's something other than a language.

People did expend effort to acquire it, though.

It is the nature of bitcoin that you cannot acquire it any other way. It must be mined. I suppose someone else can give it away to you, but they had to acquire it through mining. No bitcoin has ever entered this world that wasn't worked for. This would also be true if it never caught on as money.

those nerds were willing to work for bitcoin on the chance that it became money someday, not because it was money immediately

This sounds a lot like speculating on foreign currency. I might buy Turkish lira not because I can spend them immediately, but because I suspect the exchange rate will go up and I'll spend them later. I don't see why such an argument should prevent the initial adopters of bitcoin from acting like bitcoin is money.

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One of the amazing things about prices is that they can incorporate inchoate knowledge that we can't even articulate to ourselves.

Somehow, those early developers decided how to ration their time and physical resources in the acquisition of bitcoin. They didn't do zero and, to my knowledge, they didn't go all the way to the other extreme of investing all of their time and wealth on it.

I don't think the allocations they made were entirely random within that range, either. They had some expectations to go on, all prior to any MoE/SoV/UoA functionality.

People expect the Regression Theorem to have more teeth than it really has. As you highlight later, Subjective Value Theory requires that any source of value is a sufficient starting place, including a few nerds thinking something is neat.

we'd call it a failed attempt to create money

How is that different than what I said?

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68 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 3h
we'd call it a failed attempt to create money
How is that different than what I said?

I should have put it this way:

I think we'd call it bad money.

I don't think the allocations they made were entirely random within that range, either. They had some expectations to go on, all prior to any MoE/SoV/UoA functionality.

This is what I understood Graf (and Mises) to be saying is meant by praxeology here: there is always something prior to being valued as money.

But I think Bitcoin is a case where people didn't have any prior expectation. They meant to use it as money from the beginning. Obviously, I have no idea what any person's private expectations are, but I think there is at least a little gap where it is possible that the main expectation of people who first used bitcoin was that it was useful as money. And if there is such a possibility, the regression theorem isn't a satisfactory formula.

Of course, I should probably be asking why it matters.

Subjective Value Theory requires that any source of value is a sufficient starting place, including a few nerds thinking something is neat.

I hope that I took it farther than this. I wanted to express: "a few nerds can think something is money even if it has never had any other value."

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Ok, some of the confusion is perhaps coming from thinking money is a purely Boolean category, rather than a continuous property.

Hoppe talks about partial moneys (not sure if that was his terminology), which are commodities that take on some monetary characteristics. The Regression Theorem is trying to explain how things get started on the path to becoming money. They had some recognized properties that suggested they might function as a MoE, SoV, or UoA, and began being acquired for those reasons, resulting in a monetary premium. If that monetary premium amplified over time, then the good is considered to be emerging as a money, but it isn't money until it's overwhelmingly used for monetary purposes.

In that sense, those nerds weren't thinking bitcoin was money initially, as the word is used in the Austrian tradition. They may have used the word "money" to describe what they were making, but since there was no monetary use yet, an Austrian would say they had created something that might be able to fulfil monetary functions if people adopted it for such purposes.

a few nerds thinking something is neat

This is just my own framing and why I don't get hung up on Regression Theorem stuff.

Bitcoin is a case where people didn't have any prior expectation.

I don't think that's right. There would be an enormous range for possible future purchasing power, but the technical mechanics of bitcoin could place some bounds on it. In the moment, they were allocating costly things to the production of bitcoin (electricity, their own time, computational resources, etc.). Even if they didn't do precise accounting, they would have at least a vague sense of what their production costs were and likely wouldn't exchange bitcoin wildly below what it had cost to acquire.

You were right earlier to draw an analogy to currency speculation, but were wrong to make the analogy with a currency that is already in use. Same for the Esperanto analogy: there was a point prior to Esperanto actually being made, but after it had been conceived and was being developed, when it was not yet a language.

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169 sats \ 1 reply \ @Taj 2h

I love this type of content, the philosophization of Bitcoin

Our very own Scorecrates

I could definitely listen to a 3hr podcast debating these issues, and u know if you dont do it, breedlove definitely will

This social construct of money interests me, the mason is paid 10 sheep by the farmer and all the sheep die in the Mason's house because he hasn't got a clue what to do with them

The medium of exchange is so vast and your interjection of language is interesting, no thats an understatement, it's one of those the more you know, the more....

As I've said before I like the softwar thesis and I definitely think Bitcoin has it's role to play in diplomatic connotations as a power play, whether some agree with that or not, we shall see

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Our very own Scorecrates

Scorecrates shall henceforth be Scoresby's new nym.

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102 sats \ 3 replies \ @kepford 2h

This is such a Saylor title. Just say'n. Take that as a complement or insult I guess.

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it's an insult. but I'll take anyway. I deserve it.

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102 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 2h

Its Digital Energy! Well, he's sold out rooms with his thing so take it as a complement.

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I gotta get some of those slop images of myself scaling a mountain in a business suit or jumping off a sinking ship while clutching a rocket launcher.

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102 sats \ 0 replies \ @Sandman 1h

This is the best article have read today so far

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they might believe that every language must begin with sounds. And no language could exist, except that it started with sounds. And perhaps even that all meaning has its basis in the sounds things make...how else did it get its meaning?

That was the impression I got from the bearded dude on Lex's show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bBRVNkAfkQ

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Yet the rational economic theory on which is based, and the theorem itself, explicitly rejects empiricism.

This seems to be a major weakness of the Austrians. They are so against empiricism that they reject a lot of useful methods of gaining knowledge. IMO, there shouldn't be such a conflict between empiricism and deductive reasoning

The idea is a reasonable empirical theory on the evolution of the concept of money, but invalid as a rational theorem to distinguish money from non-money

Again, a very frustrating dichotomy. It's totally rational how the value of Bitcoin arose from predictions regarding the future, or even how someone simply wanted some (for any reason) and was willing to trade some goods for it.

It seems to me like people think there are a lot of dichotomies in economics which don't actually exist that hard among practicing economists.

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The praxeologists often feel to me like they are not so much arguing with people as they are speaking a different language. The result is confusion and frustration. This certainly happens with Voiskuil.

I think there are useful things to be gleaned from this mode of thinking, but it quickly gets bonkers if not grounded in reality.

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What was Bitcoin's use-value before it was money?

This framing tends to overlook service value in favor of good value. It's evident that the network provides a service, and all shitcoins are an effort to compete for that service of being a ledger. The ledger is also a form of security, security is also a service. Bitcoin may not be a product like a basket of eggs, but a service that makes sure no one can steal or kill your chickens has some value you'd trade eggs for.

Rothbard, Mises

Been plenty of threads lately in which we can conclude Mises was a clown on par or greater than Marx...

Rothbard too would take issue with Bitcoin, because of his clown stipulation that money be "sufficiently" divisible. Most of the cope in Bitcoin about adoption, MoE, fake L2's etc... is because its not sufficiently divisible for those use-cases.

Bitcoin simply does not divide enough for any meaningful number of people to use it as a day-to-day currency, it can only ever scale as collateral, which is far more important.

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why do we use things for money at all? Why not just use words?

In addition to your explanation about inherent(*ish) honesty, my thought was about information compression and retention.

It would be very cumbersome to have to constantly articulate all of the factors that go into a price, aside from the fact that no one even knows all of those factors.

This is similar to the reason for mathematical notation.

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In several countries you can't pay direct with crypto, you need to buy a redotpay physical card and then deliver it to your country and then go to the retailer and pay with TPE, the acceptance of BTC LN direct doesn't serve for my country unless you do what I have said.

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