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I wonder if the p2p maxis of the time feel that the internet of today isn't worth using
You can still send packets anywhere you want, with the note that sometimes you have to do some work to evade the censors, and there are much better protocols/facilities for security and privacy now. "The internet" is more awesome today than it was back then. In fact, the early internet protocols were maybe more decentralized than the websites and apps that are popular today, but most were definitely not p2p: much was client-server, from email to irc to usenet. p2p became reasonable only in the 90s, when it became affordable for consumers to have private broadband. Before that, it would have been cool to have for example a torrent-like p2p technology, but then, the cost of seeding some zipfile for a year would have been rather expensive: you'd pay by the minute for your dialup. Much more cost-efficient to put a file in a ftp://<youruni.edu|yourisp.com>/~yourname folder that was always online.
So although I sometimes miss the charm of the early internet, and I definitely am of the opinion that what the internet is used for right now by normies is a candidate for infinite head-shaking and incomprehension, the nice thing about the internet is that you don't need to use any of these awful platforms. You can do whatever the fuck you want.
And I feel that that is the same with Bitcoin. I frowned at:
No doubt, in the world where it is successful, it will necessarily look very different than what we want right now.
What do you mean with "in the world where it is successful"? It's not successful for you right now? It is to me. Maybe that means that I am that dead weight sitting between the commies that wanna take over and the scammers that want to take over. Guess what?! That makes me a feature!
Successful to me means I can buy many things with it, without relying on Fiat rails.
At the moment, in Texas, I still have to buy gift cards or use conversion services to buy things with Bitcoin. I don't think it is successful yet.
It's true I can send Bitcoin to any address I like and this is a huge success. Maybe it is enough and I need to change my expectations, but if we can get to a world where I can buy my energy and food with bitcoin and pay for lodging in most places, I will be very excited.
At the moment, in Texas, I still have to buy gift cards or use conversion services
I've always likened this to not being able to pay with USD in Europe, or not with EUR in the US and not with either in the UK. My physical wallet is always full of foreign currency, right now there's notes in 7 different currencies in there, but not lots... like no more than 200k sats worth each, most of them less.
I recently orange pilled an existing business. It was hard to convince them and they were rather scared. So instead of accepting Bitcoin, they isolated it and started anew in a separate business, and now they have to see if they can build it out. I've done this orange pilling maybe 10 times in 5 years and results vary, most often because the business owners don't start out as bitcoiners.
So I think the question is: how do Bitcoiners enable more Bitcoining? Are we willing to do non-luxury, non-premium businesses? Run a non-sexy grocery store? A repair shop? A gas station? Are we willing to literally wash old people's butts for sats instead of renting out lambos?
As k00b said the trust trustless etc
"The internet" is more awesome today than it was back then....
I was a young adult when I first heard about this thing called "the internet" in 1989...and I agree with your assessment.
The thing I do miss from 90s internet was the culture. I don't even really like reading HN comments too much these days because it makes it too clear that the entire cyberpunk ethos is dead. Bootlicking pro-regulation pro-biggov compliant slaves replaced the edgy, cool, you-cant-stop-us 90s tech crowd.
Yet, in spite of that, I can still use encryption, I can still setup my own website, I can still communicate securely, etc....
I think there is probably a workable analogy of what will happen with Bitcoin. As the masses (and that includes Wall St) pours in, the culture will shift and the pro-bootlicker crowd will become ever more vocal, yet as long as the protocol nicely ossifies, you will still be able to use bitcoin in a "2013 approved way"
That's a very optimistic view and I for one believe you
There is light at the end of the block subsidy.....
Actually that's a whole other problem 🤣🤣🤣
I hate the term bootlickers which is a euphemism for COCK SUCKERS
Guess what?! That makes me a feature!
Love your responses Optimism....I've been waiting for your response and you didn't disappoint 👏 👌
I much prefer the world of today to the world of my childhood -- I mean all I did back then was run around I'm the woods and build forts. Now, I'm working on developing my internet niche microcelebrity.
I'm glad Scoresby clarified that he was being sarcastic because for a minute..... 🤣🤣
I wonder if the p2p maxis of the time feel that the internet of today isn't worth using, or if it is just not what they originally bought into, or if it is actively bad.
The name "p2p maxis" kinda implies they would have to be opposed. I suspect you didn't mean that literally.
I can only speak as one person who was in his teens around the time the interwebs became available in our neck of the woods.
Before the glorious world wide web arrived and conquered all, some of us used to run dial-in BBSes for communicating with the world via FidoNet, to hang out and check out each others designs much like a precursor to early personal websites.
Heck, we even occasionally played DukeNukem 3D in heads up battles via dial-up, just to see if it really worked.
Small scale LAN parties were the norm and the places we'd exchange code and ideas to run our BBSes and/or share files.
Sure the majority of internet services today are trash in comparison to the conversations we had off- and online. The noise-to-signal ratio is just completely tilted towards trash.
But the internet itself isn't to blame. There always has been and will be quality out there. eg. I recall a few really good forums, many of them still exist.
The internet protocol cannot be blamed for the vapid stuff people flock to. Only you can be blamed for involving yourself with it.
I wonder if the p2p maxis of the time feel that the internet of today isn't worth using, or if it is just not what they originally bought into, or if it is actively bad
The original internet pioneers probably hate what the internet has become but they still use it, why? because the utility is too useful to not
That is what Bitcoin needs to be, too useful to ignore
Exactly, and if things stay as they are, we just have to sit back and watch the fiat system collapse
Satoshi was trying to design a system that could work well into the future, even he could not predict the world in the 2020s and beyond, parts of his thinking like the difficulty adjustment are simply brilliant
But the only way for him to have full vision is to have stayed on as lead maintainer but as we know, he showed us almost as if he could tell the future in that regard, staying onboard would've had him hunted down by the state
we just have to sit back and watch the fiat system collapse
That will never happen if you still use it.
Refuse fiat, not just accept it and buy bitcoin.
Many will say "but I have family to feed..." - my answer is: if you want change, be the change, no matter what.
This is the deplorable status today:
Bitcoin will NEVER mature if people continue to demand fiat.
💯
I was just a child in the beginnings of the internet (AOL and that crazy dial up sound are my earliest internet memories).
I wonder if the p2p maxis of the time feel that the internet of today isn't worth using, or if it is just not what they originally bought into, or if it is actively bad.
I think your comparison to Bitcoin is apt. No doubt, in the world where it is successful, it will necessarily look very different than what we want right now. Will it be so different that we will want nothing to do with it?
The internet has fostered all manner of interesting things: I much prefer the world of today to the world of my childhood -- I mean all I did back then was run around I'm the woods and build forts. Now, I'm working on developing my internet niche microcelebrity.
Sarcasm aside, I like email and smart phones, even though they aren't very self sovereign. And I will probably like institutional Bitcoin even when it is totally co-opted. I'd like to say I'll stay strong and true to the original values, but it's not like I achieve much by that.