Peer-to-Peer Markets - A Weekend Discussion \ stacker news ~bitcoin

Peer-to-Peer Markets - A Weekend Discussion

1174 sats \ 27 comments \ @sn 15 Apr 2023 bitcoin

Lately there has been a lot of talk about peer-to-peer markets in both the Lightning and Nostr ecosystems. There are at least a handful of projects that have launched or are working towards a launch, including:

Civ Kit
NIP-15 Nostr Marketplace (@darthcoin's guide listed here)
OpenBazaar 3.0
Mostro

As well as a few Bitcoin-specific marketplaces:

Noones
Paxful (recently suspended)
Bisq
RoboSats

Since it's the weekend and there isn't much "news" to discuss, we thought it would be fun to have a roundtable discussion about the state of these peer-to-peer markets, and the things that need to be built to help them achieve their visions.

First, if we're missing any marketplace projects please post them in the comments.

Below is a list of thought-starter questions to get the ball rolling, but feel free to jump in with any questions or ideas you have:

Which marketplaces appear to be the most robust/resilient to censorship?
Which markets would you like to see these marketplaces serve first?
What products or services should not be traded in a peer-to-peer market?
Will marketplaces without topic-based or geographical limits be more difficult to scale up?
Are there any technical or design choices that marketplaces are making which concern you?

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1156 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 15 Apr 2023

As P2P marketplaces are also:

https://satscrap.com/ - P2P Bitcoin marketplace
https://scarce.city/ - P2P Bitcoin marketplace (physical and digital items)
https://plebbin.com/ - P2P Bitcoin marketplace (physical and digital items)
https://www.oshi.tech/ - mobile app for small merchants
https://t.me/bitcoinp2pmarketplace - Telegram group to sell stuff P2P
https://plebeian.market/ - auction house with Bitcoin LN
https://tukan.market/
http://agorist.market/
https://bitejo.com/
https://miragesale.com/
https://bitify.com/
https://paid.co/
https://mobazha.com/

1545 sats \ 4 replies \ @BlokchainB 15 Apr 2023

Having successfully sold something on satscrap and a user of Bisq I think the p2p market place is okay. But I do get some complexity anxiety with injection of nostr. If it is going to be a true marketplace it has to be easy to use and understand. I know Facebook is evil but they make it super easy to buy and sell things on there same with eBay. Satscrap experience was meh. The p2p has a long way to go and I don’t think adding nostr is going to magically make it better

50 sats \ 3 replies \ @kr 15 Apr 2023

true, how long did it take to sell your product on satscrap?

901 sats \ 2 replies \ @BlokchainB 15 Apr 2023

It was listed for about a month before it sold. But to keep your privacy you must offer to pay shipping. If you want the buyer to pay for shipping you have to KYC.

I have another item listed and to find it I have to go to the site and find it. Or keep the initial offer link.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @kr 15 Apr 2023

ah interesting, hopefully one of these markets can get the average sale time down to days, rather than weeks or months.

or perhaps the markets that these platforms target are high-value items like homes and land which already have relatively long sales cycles.

385 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 16 Apr 2023

Plus keep in mind only Bitcoiners know about satscrap. I could post something at a deep discount that would sell in a matter of hours on Facebook marketplace that would be ignored on satscrap

1371 sats \ 0 replies \ @deleted231216 16 Apr 2023

deleted by author

964 sats \ 0 replies \ @03cf6e960a 15 Apr 2023 freebie

you forgot to mention the first lightning p2p project that started this lightning p2p boom, still working and is the most important p2p in some countries like Cuba

https://lnp2pbot.com

1002 sats \ 1 reply \ @SwearyDoctor 15 Apr 2023

peach also does peer to peer-trade in bitcoin only

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shyfire 16 Apr 2023

Yeah but it's not open source so you need to trust them.

641 sats \ 0 replies \ @02ad8239c2 15 Apr 2023

lol, another proposal right here on SN -

n3xB - naive Nostr no-KYC exchange for Bitcoin

#165199

Have no idea how the Nostr stuff will affect design, or even user experience, but it'll be interesting to watch how competing approaches fare, and produce better tools and services in the process.

The Shocknet team's Lightning.Pub is a good example - they don't like Bolt12, or at least, they don't like the onion messaging it uses, and openly state this as the reason for pursuing the Nostr based approach they're taking -

https://twitter.com/CapitalistDog1/status/1589643336146915329?s=20

For them, Nostr is a solution to the problems they see with LN tooling presently -

https://lightning.video/9b14562b95cc6ff50b92d7720286b417c1802d5f96e82022c28eb1340ccfd012

https://lightning.video/f0f64fa1fc3744fb6a3880e2bd8f6a254ceb3caee112d9708271f2d6a09a2f00

I don't have the chops to credibly assess their claims, but appreciate the work being done will ultimately help push things forward.

836 sats \ 1 reply \ @Karlm 15 Apr 2023 freebie

with injection of nostr. If it is going to be a true marketplace it has to be easy to use and understand. I know Facebook is evil but they make it super easy to buy and sell things on there same with eBay. Satscrap experience was meh. The

189 sats \ 0 replies \ @super_testnet 22 Apr 2023

Try mine: https://supertestnet.github.io/superstore

I think you'll find it much easier to use than the other ones

855 sats \ 0 replies \ @P2P_bitcoin 16 Apr 2023

Some issues with certain P2P exchanges:

Now that blocks are full every time an the time,

LocalCoinSwap - They now use a static bitcoin address per account. To get financial privacy where all your transactions are not easily identified through chain analysis, creating a new account for each trade is possible, just not really manageable. There is no Replace By Fee (RBF), though you can adjust the slder to adjust the fees.

Noones - Haven't tried it. They have geofenced the U.S.A. They ID require verification. To me, it was no loss when LocalBitcoins, and then Paxful shut down -- as I don't use Verification mandatory exchanges, ... P2P or otherwise. It does support LN though, so it will likely gain some

RoboSats - mobile app is deemed "alpha" yet.

Many of them are fairly decent, but have too little liquidity (e.g., HodlHodl). Makes it hard to find a counterparty.

I could go on.

541 sats \ 0 replies \ @random_bitcoiner 15 Apr 2023

People always forget about lnp2pbot, the telegram bot. It is quite big in certain regions of LatAm.

925 sats \ 0 replies \ @mo 16 Apr 2023

Still really super early stage, and recently won 1st place at the Bolt.Fun Nostr Hack & Design event… a marketplace for digital items GoodStr.io

Feedback and suggestions are more than welcome

760 sats \ 0 replies \ @_b_o_n_e_s_ 16 Apr 2023

This is a great topic for a discussion. I am non technical and don’t know enough about the various implementations you‘ve listed but I did read 2/3 of the Civ Kit paper and gave up because it seemed overly complicated and like it was just buzzwords. But I don’t know if that’s just because I’m not a dev? Maybe it makes more sense if you are technical. It sounded like an overly complicated RoboSats mashup with Nostr.

The bit were it lost me was where it started to talk about DIDs and where it talks about the potential for a board to be a central point of failure (so federation could be a solution). Don’t know, but definitely got me appreciating the pure p2p nature of Bisq more.

I’m also aware that the first posts on forums in response to bitcoin were highly sceptical so I can see the irony of this post.

Overall though, I’m very glad there’s a lot of attention and effort going into this problem because we absolutely need way more successful alternatives. Bisq is great but it’s not mobile first and it’s really a marketplace for bitcoin.

I’m really keen to watch the various implementations compete over the next few years

515 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 16 Apr 2023

P2P Trading Platforms (e.g., Bisq, HodlHodl, LocalCoinSwap, etc.)* https://cointastical.medium.com/p2p-otc-exchanges-e-g-localbitcoins-bisq-hodlhodl-etc-20f293a2c72e

(or, mostly the same thing, but on Github): Person-to-Person bitcoin Trading Platforms https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges

458 sats \ 0 replies \ @023b419c6a 16 Apr 2023

Hodlhodl.com is an important one (outside US)

377 sats \ 0 replies \ @TNStacker 16 Apr 2023

huge fan of robosats! with appropriate premiums trades are fast. on the other hand, i have not been able to execute a bisq trade. not sure why.

339 sats \ 0 replies \ @super_testnet 22 Apr 2023

if we're missing any marketplace projects please post them in the comments

https://supertestnet.github.io/superstore/

I just launched it today but there it is!

317 sats \ 2 replies \ @faithandcredit 16 Apr 2023

The problem with all this is the relatively high iq it requires to understand and use and that at the end of the day it just isn't competitive with centralized options. The only exception being bitcoin itself, but let's see.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @kr 16 Apr 2023

agree that it’s a challenge to use many of these platforms today.

but curious to know why you say it’s not competitive with centralized options.

do you mean that these marketplaces don’t have the scale of centralized options?
or are there actual limitations that will prohibit these platforms from reaching feature-parity with centralized options?