Lately there has been a lot of talk about peer-to-peer markets in both the Lightning and Nostr ecosystems. There are at least a handful of projects that have launched or are working towards a launch, including:
As well as a few Bitcoin-specific marketplaces:
Since it's the weekend and there isn't much "news" to discuss, we thought it would be fun to have a roundtable discussion about the state of these peer-to-peer markets, and the things that need to be built to help them achieve their visions.
First, if we're missing any marketplace projects please post them in the comments.
Below is a list of thought-starter questions to get the ball rolling, but feel free to jump in with any questions or ideas you have:
As P2P marketplaces are also:
Having successfully sold something on satscrap and a user of Bisq I think the p2p market place is okay. But I do get some complexity anxiety with injection of nostr. If it is going to be a true marketplace it has to be easy to use and understand. I know Facebook is evil but they make it super easy to buy and sell things on there same with eBay. Satscrap experience was meh. The p2p has a long way to go and I don’t think adding nostr is going to magically make it better
true, how long did it take to sell your product on satscrap?
It was listed for about a month before it sold. But to keep your privacy you must offer to pay shipping. If you want the buyer to pay for shipping you have to KYC.
I have another item listed and to find it I have to go to the site and find it. Or keep the initial offer link.
ah interesting, hopefully one of these markets can get the average sale time down to days, rather than weeks or months.
or perhaps the markets that these platforms target are high-value items like homes and land which already have relatively long sales cycles.
Plus keep in mind only Bitcoiners know about satscrap. I could post something at a deep discount that would sell in a matter of hours on Facebook marketplace that would be ignored on satscrap
peach also does peer to peer-trade in bitcoin only
Yeah but it's not open source so you need to trust them.
with injection of nostr. If it is going to be a true marketplace it has to be easy to use and understand. I know Facebook is evil but they make it super easy to buy and sell things on there same with eBay. Satscrap experience was meh. The
Try mine: https://supertestnet.github.io/superstore
I think you'll find it much easier to use than the other ones
you forgot to mention the first lightning p2p project that started this lightning p2p boom, still working and is the most important p2p in some countries like Cuba
lol, another proposal right here on SN -
n3xB - naive Nostr no-KYC exchange for Bitcoin
Have no idea how the Nostr stuff will affect design, or even user experience, but it'll be interesting to watch how competing approaches fare, and produce better tools and services in the process.
The Shocknet team's Lightning.Pub is a good example - they don't like Bolt12, or at least, they don't like the onion messaging it uses, and openly state this as the reason for pursuing the Nostr based approach they're taking -
For them, Nostr is a solution to the problems they see with LN tooling presently -
I don't have the chops to credibly assess their claims, but appreciate the work being done will ultimately help push things forward.
People always forget about lnp2pbot, the telegram bot. It is quite big in certain regions of LatAm.
I am in the process of handing over https://bitejo.com to a new owner, as I will become homeless this month (probably indefinitely as I don't have any prospects of reliably earning money). Hopefully the new owner will improve Bitejo and make it usable for people who want to buy/sell products or services for Bitcoin or Monero.
It would have helped to find a marketplace for KYC-free jobs/freelancing. Microlancer.io and t.me/BitcoinP2PMarketplace are already good, but my skills are amateur and I need to improve them before I have a chance to find work. In the future it would be nice to have KYC-free apartment rentals (Bitcoin AirBnB). KYC-free = no government ID is required (it's impossible to find a country that will print ID for me without an existing passport/birth certificate). Trust could be via P2P reputation, escrow, social media, etc.
Some issues with certain P2P exchanges:
Now that blocks are full every time an the time,
LocalCoinSwap - They now use a static bitcoin address per account. To get financial privacy where all your transactions are not easily identified through chain analysis, creating a new account for each trade is possible, just not really manageable. There is no Replace By Fee (RBF), though you can adjust the slder to adjust the fees.
Noones - Haven't tried it. They have geofenced the U.S.A. They ID require verification. To me, it was no loss when LocalBitcoins, and then Paxful shut down -- as I don't use Verification mandatory exchanges, ... P2P or otherwise. It does support LN though, so it will likely gain some
RoboSats - mobile app is deemed "alpha" yet.
Many of them are fairly decent, but have too little liquidity (e.g., HodlHodl). Makes it hard to find a counterparty.
I could go on.
Still really super early stage, and recently won 1st place at the Bolt.Fun Nostr Hack & Design event… a marketplace for digital items GoodStr.io
Feedback and suggestions are more than welcome
This is a great topic for a discussion. I am non technical and don’t know enough about the various implementations you‘ve listed but I did read 2/3 of the Civ Kit paper and gave up because it seemed overly complicated and like it was just buzzwords. But I don’t know if that’s just because I’m not a dev? Maybe it makes more sense if you are technical. It sounded like an overly complicated RoboSats mashup with Nostr.
The bit were it lost me was where it started to talk about DIDs and where it talks about the potential for a board to be a central point of failure (so federation could be a solution). Don’t know, but definitely got me appreciating the pure p2p nature of Bisq more.
I’m also aware that the first posts on forums in response to bitcoin were highly sceptical so I can see the irony of this post.
Overall though, I’m very glad there’s a lot of attention and effort going into this problem because we absolutely need way more successful alternatives. Bisq is great but it’s not mobile first and it’s really a marketplace for bitcoin.
I’m really keen to watch the various implementations compete over the next few years
The problem with all this is the relatively high iq it requires to understand and use and that at the end of the day it just isn't competitive with centralized options. The only exception being bitcoin itself, but let's see.
agree that it’s a challenge to use many of these platforms today.
but curious to know why you say it’s not competitive with centralized options.
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Hodlhodl.com is an important one (outside US)
I just launched it today but there it is!
P2P Trading Platforms (e.g., Bisq, HodlHodl, LocalCoinSwap, etc.)* https://cointastical.medium.com/p2p-otc-exchanges-e-g-localbitcoins-bisq-hodlhodl-etc-20f293a2c72e
(or, mostly the same thing, but on Github): Person-to-Person bitcoin Trading Platforms https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges
huge fan of robosats! with appropriate premiums trades are fast. on the other hand, i have not been able to execute a bisq trade. not sure why.
Lnbits marketplace, would that make the list?
that's the NIP-15 Nostr Marketplace one