Umbrel's new TOS no one talks about will prevent you from running a shop with it \ stacker news ~bitcoin

Umbrel's new TOS no one talks about will prevent you from running a shop with it umbrel.com/legal/umbrelos/tos

3157 sats \ 17 comments \ @AaronDewes 3 Jun 2023 bitcoin freebie

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @xphis05 4 Jun 2023

FYI I got a reply from them. They updated the ToS and removed that part on item 7. https://umbrel.com/legal/umbrelos/tos

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Arceris 3 Jun 2023

Yeah, this is stupid, especially since they have BTCPay Server as an option.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @xphis05 3 Jun 2023

Thanks for informing! I have set up both LNBits and BTCPay apps in my umbrel node. IMHO btcpay purpose is to allow commercial sales. I have one store using my btcpay instance actually. Is this not allowed? I fail to see the logic in allowing BTCPay app in umbrel, and forbidding commercial use at the same time.

51 sats \ 3 replies \ @AaronDewes OP 3 Jun 2023

Umbrel said in June 2022 that they are not prohibiting running shops, but I'm not sure about now, because they only recently (and secretly) introduced these TOS, which try to restrict what you can do with your node. Even saying "Don't do illegal stuff" restricts your freedom to do so, and it seems to apply US laws everywhere (Not a lawyer, so I may be misunderstanding point 11).

Also dangerous is ". You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the software, except as permitted by applicable law. " -> Umbrel sometimes keeps code closed source after releases for some time, and this essentially forbids anyone from trying to figure out what it does in such a case.

Disclaimer: I develop a noncommercial FOSS umbrel alternative at https://runcitadel.space that will launch soon, which also includes features like HTTPS to make running shops easier.

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @xphis05 3 Jun 2023

Thanks Aaron for your comments. I actually asked them now to clarify in their website. I am not from the US, but I still would like an answer from them. Also there are the LNBits shop extensions (nostr and web) that I would like to offer in the future. This TOS are not clear about it either. Good to know about Runcitadel update. I tried it last year (feb 2022) and it worked great (was like the 2021 Umbrel UI which is great). I am a bit more used to the current Umbrel UI, but if I cannot stay in Umbrel I would def go to Runcitadel since I have used it before. Https not an issue for me since I use a tiny vps proxy for traffic with tailscale. When will you launch it?

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @xphis05 3 Jun 2023

I read there is point 20 20. Open Source Components This Agreement acknowledges the use of open-source components in umbrelOS, which are governed by their respective licenses. Users must comply with the terms of these licenses when using the software. I do not know if I can freely use FOSS like BTCPay within non FOSS like Umbrel.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @AaronDewes OP 3 Jun 2023

Most software allows it because they run in Docker. But AFAIK, you will definitely not violate any license, if including an app like BTCPay in Umbrel would be forbidden, it would be Umbrel's responsibility, not yours.

10 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 3 Jun 2023

Which point are you specifically referring to?

I searched for "shop", "finance", "sale" but I found nothing.

edit: Ah, I think you mean Restrictions on Use:

You may not use umbrelOS for any illegal activities or in any manner that violates the terms of the PolyForm Noncommercial 1.0 License. You are also prohibited from using the software for any commercial purposes.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @AaronDewes OP 3 Jun 2023

Point 7. Restrictions on Use. It prohibits commercial use, and running a shop seems to be commercial use.

18 sats \ 4 replies \ @Hypnagog 4 Jun 2023

Umbrel is the operating software. Using the operating software commercially (creating your own competing market app for instance) is what they mean here. Btcpay is its own software with its own terms of use. When you use btcpay you abide by theirs.

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @Jannostr 4 Jun 2023

I agree that their intent seems to be to say that you can't commercialise the Umbrel OS software, but it is also confusing and they should clarify that is the intent. Sure hope the intent is not to say you can't use it for commercial purposes to run BTCPay Server for a business. That's the whole purpose of BTCPay Server.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @usernameisJim 4 Jun 2023

The ToS was updated to clarify! It’s perfectly fine to run your own BTCPay store!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 4 Jun 2023

Nice, I see, they replaced

You are also prohibited from using the software for any commercial purposes

with

You are solely responsible for your use of the software and any consequences resulting from such use.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Jem 4 Jun 2023

Thank you. That makes more sense.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Busybe3z 4 Jun 2023

𝐇𝗼𝐰𝐝𝐲 𝐝𝗼 ? 🤠 👋

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @JesseJames 4 Jun 2023

There are plenty other fish in the sea... Start9 comes to mind or just run btcpay by itself (own, hardware, docker, cloud, etc.) or Aaron's citadel when is ready. I like what umbrel does, which is spreading good software to masses, don't like how they do it, but hey, its just my opinion man.. :-)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 4 Jun 2023

I was just about buy their hardware. Maybe just go a cheap route and throw citadel on it but Citadel seems very buggy right now.