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20 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 14 Jul 2023 \ parent \ on: Daily discussion thread
I think about this a lot, too. Where I get stuck is on the idea of consequences. Most of life depends deeply on consequences. Like, at any given point there is nothing keeping you from driving like a maniac except the very real consequences of it -- death, being maimed, killing or maiming others. Society fully depends on the assumption that you will internalize these consequences and be deterred by them and that we can reason about the system that results. On occasion those assumptions are violated and then great harm can be done, e.g., World Trade Center, Charlie Hebdo, Columbine, etc.
I would think that having your life fall apart would be sufficient motivation, at every level, to get your shit in order and to learn to play by the rules of society, because if you didn't, it was bleak. And yet, here and now, in this society, the thought of that happening does not sufficiently deter. Part of that is that the consequences have been drastically changed - there are so many layers of fucking up before you wind up in a homeless encampment!
But it's also true, perhaps, that society is harder to fit into for various reasons. It's certainly true that you can fall off easier than people think -- for a lot of people, their financial situation is precarious, and if they fall off the merry-go-round, it's hard to get back on. Or maybe: if you don't get back on right away, it gets harder and harder and harder.
I came to rest on two conclusions:
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When society is working relatively well, people do pretty well. People inherently do want to contribute, be of service, succeed, thrive. People are so incredibly creative and industrious if they haven't been fucked up somehow! The evidence for this is overwhelming. If 10x more people are not doing well, something has gone wrong socially.
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No matter what standard you set, and what you put in place to keep people on the right side of the line, some people will fail. Whatever game you set up, some people will lose at it. And then what is your plan? If you structure society to attempt to prevent every bad outcome, I think you wind up engineering an autocratic hellscape.
Not very helpful, I know. But an important question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Thank you for your thoughts. There are some people who, for whatever reason, do not have the insurance; financial, family, health etc who find themselves needing emergency help. The problem seems to be moving people from emergency help to supporting people to move on to better opportunities.
When life falls apart (and that comes in at different levels to different people) some people are incapable of processing and formulating a route out and may look to end their lives in preference. That starts the spiral of despair and descending the layers of f**cking up.
Personal responsibility is fundamentally important but so is the helping hand for those who need it.
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