This is a question I have going on in my head for quite a long time.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get trashed here for this post, but I'm still curious about what BTC (maxis, specially) feel about this narrative. I'm not an expert on the topic at all, but I do hear a lot of people leaning towards Monero because it's supposed to be more private than BTC. Is this true or is this just some BS?
The biggest reason I bring this post out is because I've just learned today (through one of my posts) how seriously some plebs take privacy here...
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Yes, Monero has strong default privacy that is better than Bitcoin (much cheaper, simpler, and quicker too). I don't think this is even debatable. Coinjoining is only obfuscation - a weaker form of privacy vs encryption. It can be deobfuscated with more data or future mistakes from the user. All connections and amounts are visible.
While ring signatures are also obfuscation - this is only for the sender. With Monero amounts and recievers are completely hidden. The transaction graph doesn't exist on Monero. Simple example:
Monero transaction:
Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]
Bitcoin default transaction:
Alice sent $X to Bob
Bitcoin coinjoin transaction:
Maybe Alice sent $[X or Y] to [Bob or Charlie]
Monero achieves this with 3 layers of privacy for senders, amounts, and recievers. It uses ring signatures, confidential transactions, and stealth addresses respectively. Dandelion++ also makes it very difficult to find the IP origin of a transaction even when not behind tor or a vpn.
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin
https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 23 Aug 2023
Everything comes at a cost, if you optimise for one thing you have to give up something else, monero transactions onchain might be private but like Bitcoin privacy tools you only have forward privacy if you bought on a KYC or dox'd yourself acquiring it so first you need to P2P which isn't as liquid as Bitcoin P2P so good luck getting in and out
Then you have operational risk, monera is constantly changing its hashing algo so ASICS don't get involved in their game or get involved for too long so you're constantly hard forking and ensuring your can never be sure the next hard fork won't introduce issues
You also take liquidity risk and if you don't know supply and issuance, it's not really something you'd want for long-term storage. The only use I could see for it is atomic swapping between monero and BTC as a hybrid coin-join but even that use case can be done in different ways
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10 sats \ 5 replies \ @edulopesf 23 Aug 2023
After a fast research here:
- https://originstamp.com/blog/monero-vs-bitcoin-whats-the-difference/
- https://currency.com/monero-vs-bitcoin-the-pros-and-cons
- https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2023/03/03/monero-bitcoin-comparison/
My personal conclusion is:
About privacy:
Monero certainly has some advantages over Bitcoin, but it's not untraceable 100%.
Bitcoin on the other hand has way more users, if you really need a huge level of anonymity in your transaction, it is also possible with correct services and precautions.
About convenience:
Monero Here Monero seems to lose, it might be a little trickier to exchange your coins since might be harder to find exchange services, but not that hard tough.
Bitcoin is the master in this situation, because it was the first, it's certainly the easiest to be accepted anywhere, even 'outsiders' who are not exactly familiar with cryptocurrency certainly had heard about Bitcoin.
In the end, I'd still give more credit to Bitcoin simply because there are more people working with it. If one day people really believe Bitcoin will need to become more private, nodes will vote.
I was also forgetting about the fact Monero doesn't have a mining limit, theoretically, might open door for inflation if becomes widely used, but that's just a guess....
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210 sats \ 1 reply \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
All things equal Monero will always be more private than Bitcoin.
You are confusing anonymity (hidden identity) with privacy (hidden actions). You can have one without the other or both. Bitcoin can never be private it is a public blockchain. All actions are visible. The most you can hope to be is psuedonymous and obfuscate your actions - a weaker form of privacy that can be unraveled with more data or user mistakes (Monero's encrypted amounts and recievers are truly hidden.)
But even so, Bitcoin anon set is smaller than you let on. Because of it's default transparency this is an uphill battle for Bitcoin. Every single Monero user is automatically counted towards it's anon set by default. And ring signatures compound this over time without any action from those users at all. Vast majority of Bitcoiners don't coinjoin at all, let alone coinjoin every spend.
If a Monero user starts out KYC'd and withdraws this counts towards Monero's anon set. If a Bitcoiner does this they have to withdraw and have the additional step of coinjoining. It is also more expensive, slower, and more tedious.
www.localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin
Simple examples of each:
Bitcoin default transaction:
Alice sent $X to Bob
Bitcoin coinjoin transaction:
Maybe Alice sent $[X or Y] to [Bob or Charlie]
Monero transaction:
Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @locomancell OP 8 Sep 2023
This makes a lot of sence
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10 sats \ 2 replies \ @orthzar 23 Aug 2023
To add to this, Monero has had to do many hard-forks over the years to change things, most importantly to squash several inflation bugs -- the most recent IIRC was a few years ago. The last time Bitcoin had to hard-fork was 2011, which was also to squash an inflation bug.
There is a very real possibility that future inflation bugs will be discovered in Monero, simply because it's consensus code is very complex. This is a serious problem, because someone (whether Monero devs or anyone else) could find and exploit such an inflation bug.
For all we know, one or more of the Monero devs could have exploited or could be currently exploiting an inflation bug prior to reporting it. The XMR from such a bug would be sent to a fresh address, so it would be impossible for anyone to prove who would be exploiting such an inflation bug. The exploiter would report the bug after selling some or all of that inflated XMR.
This is a serious counterparty risk for Monero. The counterpary is anyone who has the skills to find and quietly exploit an inflation bug in Monero's consensus code. The most likely people who could do that are Monero devs. I am not saying that Monero devs have exploited inflation bugs -- I'm only saying that it's possible and plausibly undetectable. Moreover, there are other people who could exploit an inflation bug in Monero, if they understand zero-knowledge proofs.
Related: FluffyPony urges people to not hold Monero, but only to use it for buying/selling things. I do not suspect he knows of an inflation bug being exploited; he seems to simply be trying to keep people from somehow losing all their wealth.
I should say that there is a possibility that the privacy ideas in Monero could be applied to a second layer atop Bitcoin. Such a project would not have any inflation bugs (because Bitcoin handles final settlement), while giving some of the privacy benefits of Monero to Bitcoin users. But such a project will never begin unless Monero devs can be convinced to jump ship to Bitcoin. Their expertise would be critical for such a project.
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210 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Not unique to Monero.
https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/
Apparently you have never heard of the 2018 Bitcoin bug. A single anon discovered a bug several years old that would've allowed them to inflate the supply without being discovered. Luckily, they were an honest actor and reported it in secret to devs. The devs could have also taken advantage of this in secret. If this anon had exploited this bug, and used fake bitcoin to buy real goods and services, there is no good remedy. You either:
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Hardfork out the fake Bitcoin - screwing over all merchants and users who received this fake bitcoin and gave away real goods and services.
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Or leave it - destroying 21 million meme.
Both are pretty catastrophic for user confidence. Remember, this can always happen again. Avoided by the good samaritan will of a single anon and dumb luck. Attackers have the advantage. Transparent simple auditability doesn't help after the fact.
You can't have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.
Major value props of Bitcoin like self-custody, permissionlessness, p2p, or final settlement are sacrificed to gain Monero's level of privacy on L2. Liquid and lightning give up at least one of these and is still inferior privacy vs Monero.
The only thing on par with Monero's privacy right now would probably be Ecash, but you give up self-custody. The mints can also arbitrarily print tokens that are unbacked by Bitcoin.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
deleted by author
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60 sats \ 0 replies \ @mo 23 Aug 2023
yes
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @023668c51c 23 Aug 2023 freebie
Monero is a more private cryptocurrency than Bitcoin. This is why some people prefer Monero over Bitcoin. Monero is also fungible, scalable, and decentralized. These are all important features for a cryptocurrency.