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Convince me, a bitcoin fanatic, why Monero is the future of crypto.
320 sats \ 38 comments \ @Michelson_Morley 5 Sep 2023 bitcoin

In other words, steelman the case for Monero.

Best steelman wins.

Please get as technical as you can. Don't hold back! I will google and ask anything I don't understand. I've worked with blockchains for the past 2 years, and have studied bitcoin internals for a couple months.
Bonus points for including arguments from the view of Austrian economics.
Bonus points for thinking about long term perspective, 100, 500, 10000 years.
Bonus points for wanting humanity to flourish.
notes / motivation for the bounty:
I believe Lightning is the king. It's what I develop for.
But Monero is interesting to me. It's also PoW. It's hashing algorithm has yet to be ASIC broken. It's designed to be untraceable. But this untraceability, this militant fungibility, also makes it inflexible, inherently resistant to layer 2 solutions (though hopeful proposals exist, they're nothing like the speed of Lightning).
There are people on this website with extremely deep bitcoin knowledge and general crypto economics know how (e.g. @jimmysong, who i've been reading recently). But so many more.
So this bounty is for learning from them. There's no agenda other than to see what bitcoiners can teach me, about what they probably don't often try to teach.
Basically.. I'm paying Sam Harris to convince me that God exists. Because who better?
100,000 sats paid
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100.1k sats \ 3 replies \ @yo2xncv0 7 Sep 2023

Monero and Bitcoin have different goals.

Different strengths and weaknesses. Specialization requires trade offs. If you try excelling at everything you will be mediocre at everything.
Monero is a better p2p digital cash. A better medium of exchange. Adaptive. Very cheap tx fees, private, and fungible.
Bitcoin is a better p2p digital gold. A better store of value. Conservative. Completely auditable and limited supply.

General technical overview...

Bitcoin coinjoining is obfuscation. A weaker form of privacy vs encryption. All range of amounts and connections are visible. Potentially deobfuscated with more data or future mistakes.
Ring signatures are usually the first and only thing most think of about Monero's privacy... It is also obfuscation BUT is only 1 of 3 privacy layers and only applies to the sender. This means even if one layer is compromised the other layers are unaffected.
The other two layers are truly hidden using ZK proofs and encryption via confidential transactions and stealth addresses. Amounts and recievers are completely hidden and are not visible on the blockchain. Monero has no transaction graph. Simple example:
Monero default transaction: Maybe Alice sent $[?] to [?]
Bitcoin default transaction: Alice sent $X to Bob
Additionally, Dandelion++ makes finding the IP origin of a Monero transaction very difficult even if you are not behind tor or a vpn.

"Bonus points for including arguments from the view of Austrian economics."

Ideal money must be fungible. Bitcoin is fungible on a protocol level. But isn't fungible in the real world. Privacy and fungibility are inseperable for publically broadcasted blockchains. https://mises.org/wire/why-fungibility-important-understanding-money-and-crypto

"Bonus points for thinking about long term perspective, 100, 500, 10000 years."

Monero tail emission means there will always be incentive to mine not dependent on tx fees. Monero tx fees are less than a cent right now and get cheaper the more it is used. Bitcoin will be unusable for 99% of the world in the future.
Lightning feels more like a bad compromise to me. It is rarely used non custodially much less P2P, highly dependant on middlemen to route efficiently and succesfully, interactive, bad sovereign UX, weaker security guarantees, larger attack surface, not the best privacy, and not final settlement, not until that tx is on chain. https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations/

"Bonus points for wanting humanity to flourish."

Human freedom is impossible without privacy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSlowAhvUk
Being able to swap (cross chain atomic swaps soon) means your don't have to "choose". You can use the best tool for the job. Spend with Monero, save with Bitcoin.

...There is a lot to cover. Wanted to keep this relatively brief and easily digestable. But happy to try and answer more specific questions if you have any.

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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Michelson_Morley OP 8 Sep 2023
Well done, and THANK YOU! Learned a lot from this.
Sidenote: you now have the most highly stacked comment of the past month. Well earned.
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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Thank you sir! Hope I made a convincing case for Monero.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @fwynn 8 Sep 2023
Haha wow well, I'm boned. Great answer man you definitely deserve the win
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0 sats \ 33 replies \ @Zepasta 5 Sep 2023
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55 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
The same person that you're quoting also said "Maybe you need a Monero"
So 🤷‍♂️
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50 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Cute. You are the type of Bitcoiner criminals and chain analysis loves 🥰 It makes thier jobs easier.
https://voltage.cloud/blog/lightning-network-faq/lightning-network-privacy-explainer/
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2003.12470.pdf
"We identified 27,183 private channels, discovered hidden balances, and showed how a passive adversary can infer payment endpoints with very high probability."
I already told you I use both Bitcoin and Monero for their strengths. You can continue beating up that strawman of me if you want.
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5 sats \ 25 replies \ @Michelson_Morley OP 5 Sep 2023
What does this mean? Only one cryptocurrency can exist in the long run? Can you elaborate.
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0 sats \ 24 replies \ @Zepasta 5 Sep 2023
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250 sats \ 4 replies \ @yo2xncv0 7 Sep 2023
"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor

1. Transparency:

A double-edged sword. Your transactions are now surveillable and lack real world fungibility. And even worse because in practice you don't take advantage of Bitcoin's transparent chain. You are not checking Bitcoins transparent blockchain and making sure all inputs = all outputs every 10 minutes. Running a node and paying no mind doesn't count. Typing in a command doesn't count. Otherwise you are doing the same thing any Monero user would do.

2. Scalability:

Even if you assume the whole world will use your crypto (big assumption that I don't believe) it highly depends on the rate of adoption, protocol improvements (Monero tx size has been reduced by ~80% since it started), and consumer tech advances. Bitcoin has been extremely conservative in that regard. It doesn't necessarily mean Monero won't scale. https://youtu.be/9RJ5HDmuucY?si=46BXFqieuG-AiKkj&t=482
Bitcoin on chain has similar scalability to Monero. Lightning is a different beast to Bitcoin. Many sacrifices. Core value props and security is not translated to L2s. What is actually being scaled? https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations/

3. Adoption and Recognition:

If adoption and recognition right now were all that mattered fiat money has Bitcoin beat

4. Network Effects:

Same answer as above + We can clearly see this isn't true. Monero is on pace to surpass Bitcoin in DNMs (if it hasn't already) even with it's first mover advantage. Monero also has a first mover advantage and network effect in the "privacy coin" category. Does that mean Bitcoin should give up any attempt at privacy? I'm sure you would say no.
While Monero offers unique privacy features BY DEFAULT, you can achieve the same level of privacy using Coinjoins and Layer 2's on Bitcoin, so why even bother with Monero?
No it isn't the same. You can:
  1. Achieve weak coinjoin obfuscation on Bitcoin that is techncially inferior to Monero's encryption, expensive, slower, and more tedious vs Monero. Addtionally you have to maintain it going forward.
  2. Or you can sacrifice core value props like self custody, permissionlessness, p2p, or final settlement and security guarantees to gain Monero's level of privacy on L2 (the only thing on par with Monero right now would maybe be Ecash, but you sacrifice self-custody. Liquid and lightning are inferior privacy vs Monero.)
Either case is not a full replacement for Monero.
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 7 Sep 2023
Monero has only 0,24% market dominance and $ 69 milion Volume (24h) While Bitcoin has almost 50% market dominance and $ 10 Bilion Volume (24h)
Monero YTD% is -6,10% Bitcoin YTD% is +53,91%
Your privacy coin is losing value just by holding it. It's worse than fiat.
How many Monero ETFs you heard on the news?
Monero is slowly but surely losing ranks on CoinMarketCap (right now is at 25º), even Bitcoin Cash (a complete shitcoin) has double the volume of Monero.
Monero has no supply cap, and there is no way for people to audit the blockchain, it's just like Fiat.
Monero has been losing in every metric imaginable, for years, and will continue to do so.

THERE IS NO SECOND BEST

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50 sats \ 2 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Monero does ~8x more transactions in proportion to market cap
What does any of that have to do with privacy, fungibility, and cheap txs? You're losing value by just USING Bitcoin. Worse than fiat. The more you USE Bitcoin the poorer you get especially going into the future as tx fees continue to rise.
Then don't hold it long term. If you speculate this trend will continue into the future no one is forcing you to save with Monero long term or to hold a lot of it. Do you store all your value in cash or expect cash to be the best store of value? No. But it is useful and a great medium of exchange with different strength vs gold or other commodities. Global cash market is ~$100 trillion. Cash is king. Monero is a better p2p digital cash.
Monero has no limit, but has a predictable steady inflation rate (unlike fiat), and inflation is less than that of gold. So scary! Is gold worthless?
You audit Monero the same way you audit Bitcoin. You run a node. You type in a command and it spits a number back out. In practice, no Bitcoiner is taking advantage of Bitcoin's transparent simple math by manually adding up all inputs and all outputs every 10 minutes. So what is the real world difference? It's larping.
Monero is winning in strong default privacy, real world fungibility, and very cheap txs without compromising self-custody, permissionlessness, final settlement or P2P. The darknets AKA free markets can back this up.

"MAYBE YOU NEED A MONERO" -Michael Saylor

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 8 Sep 2023
You do you. Go ahead and keep your Monero coin that is rank 25 on coinmarketcap behind most shitscoins scams and with negative returns. I will stay with my Bitcoin, the apex asset.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Na, I can use both for their strengths. You can ape into a single one if you want.
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105 sats \ 8 replies \ @Zepasta 5 Sep 2023
Austrian economics emphasizes the importance of sound money, which maintains its value over time. Bitcoin's limited supply (capped at 21 million coins) and decentralized issuance ensure that it cannot be subject to inflationary pressures or arbitrary monetary policies. Monero has a infinite supply. This makes it a the oposite of a store of value in the long term, especially in comparison to Bitcoin.
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150 sats \ 7 replies \ @fwynn 6 Sep 2023
Unless you account for the inevitable entropy of funds being lost in unreachable transactions.
I mean it's a bit like saying "gold is in danger because sometimes we drop it in the ocean". But maybe you see my point
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5 sats \ 0 replies \ @Michelson_Morley OP 6 Sep 2023
literally the first person here to steel man monero lol. good luck! By the looks of things, you're up 100k sats on saturday.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Zepasta 7 Sep 2023
If people can't audit the blockchain, it's just like Fiat. If there is no supply cap, it's just like Fiat. If it has been losing value over time, it's just like Fiat.

THERE IS NO SECOND BEST

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55 sats \ 4 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
And in practice, no Bitcoiner is taking advantage of it's simple math to audit the blockchain. No one manually checks every 10 minutes that all inputs = all outputs. They just run a node and don't give it another thought. Exactly as any Monero user would.
  • Yes, no supply cap, but supply is steady and predictable (unlike fiat) and it is less inflation than gold. It is also decentralized, permissionless, non custodial, final settlement, p2p, and FOSS. So no it isn't "just like fiat".
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Sep 2023
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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Michelson_Morley OP 5 Sep 2023
Thanks for writing! Appreciate it. I'll compare it with other responses (if there are any) and pay the bounty to the top one on Saturday. :)
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100 sats \ 8 replies \ @Zepasta 5 Sep 2023
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15 sats \ 0 replies \ @Michelson_Morley OP 6 Sep 2023
Listen man, I appreciate the effort, but you're misunderstanding the assignment. I know people on this site can defend bitcoin. Did you read my post?
What you are doing is literally the opposite of steelmanning monero.
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5 sats \ 6 replies \ @yo2xncv0 7 Sep 2023
  • Less than 1% of bitcoin mcap, but often 5-10% of Bitcoin's tx count. This disproportionate usage should tell you something.
  • If you fear inflation less than that of gold, you don't have to hold Monero. Use it. Continue saving in Bitcoin.
  • Naturally. But if you go to the birthplace of Bitcoin the Darknet Markets AKA free markets - Monero is just as accepted as Bitcoin and in some cases is the only one accepted.
  • This is not true. Coinjoining is merely obfuscation, a weaker form of privacy that can potentially be undone with more data or future mistakes. L2s can achieve Monero's level of privacy, but not without sacrificing major value props of L1 like self-custody, permissionlessness, p2p, or final settlement (Ecash, Liquid, Lightning). You can have robust privacy without sacrificing core value props by using Monero.
  • Monero is audited the same way as Bitcoin. You run a node. While true to a degree - no Bitcoiner is taking advantage of Bitcoin's simple math transparency in practice. You are not checking every 10 minutes yourself that all inputs = all outputs. You run a node and pay no mind.
  • This is fine. Monero gave up limited supply for future on chain security, useability/affordability for all users. Bitcoin gave that up for stronger store of value. Trade offs were made.
  • This is the weakest criticism of all. You are using the same FUD tradfi and mainstream media used to attack Bitcoin in it's Darknet Market infancy. The highest adversarial targets choosing to use it (criminals) means it works! Is our goal unstoppable money or is it not? If a few bobbleheads saying mean things is all it takes to destroy your crypto...well it was going to die anyway.
My experience (myself included) is Bitcoin maxis slowly coming to accept Monero and realizing its invaluable utility. Bitcoin and Monero occupy different realms. They are not antagonistic - they are synergystic.
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0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Zepasta 7 Sep 2023
  • "Less than 1% of bitcoin mcap, but often 5-10% of Bitcoin's tx count. This disproportionate usage should tell you something."
Even if Monero has 5-10% of Bitcoins tx count, Monero has 100+ times less volume. Most small transactions are being done inside Lightning Network, if we include them, Monero drops to less than 1% of Bitcoin tx count.
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50 sats \ 4 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Lightning has $126 million flowing through it. Monero has $2.6 billion.
Outside of these little bubbles no one uses lightning. Much less use it in any fully sovereign manner. ~96% of LN users are on custodial wallets. So even with this small lightning usage can you really even count that as "using"? Debatable.
There is virtually zero usage of lightning in adversarial environment free markets like DNMs where Bitcoin was born and these things are mercilessly put to the test. Monero is used as much as Bitcoin there as of late 2021. Most likely has already surpassed Bitcioin.
Monero does ~8x more transactions in proportion to market cap vs Bitcoin.
And Bitcoin volume is virtually non-existent vs fiat...but that is a single metric and doesn't account for other value props of Bitcoin that make it unique, right?
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Zepasta 8 Sep 2023
I'm an active user of Robosats. There isn't a single Monero offer there. Just checked it now aswell.
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
What about any of the others that I listed?
Robosats is tiny, but what you say makes sense. The cross section between lightning and Monero always seemed small to me (and lightning is tiny to begin with). But it is still available.
Bisq is much larger and more popular than Robosats. Monero has the largest liquidity there (aside from Bitcoin) even larger than fiat offers on there.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zepasta 8 Sep 2023
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
Bisq is a little less user friendly, but is more decentralized/censorship resistant. I would suggest LocalMonero/Agoradesk if you want an easier experience of buying Bitcoin or Monero p2p and kyc-free.
If you make an offer on Bisq or LocalMonero/Agoradesk you can get it at a very slight premium (1%-3%), at market price, or even slightly below market price sometimes. I usually get someone who takes the offer in an hour or so. Have never waited longer than a day.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @yo2xncv0 8 Sep 2023
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