My question is not about custodial or non-custodial. I just keep wondering why so little information is known about the company behind it and how the company actually manages to run profitably.
I could hardly find any information about the company, the investors or the business model itself. I am aware that routing through fees creates income, but how can this income cover the fixed and development costs? Is this only possible with large amounts of money from outside?
What am I missing?
users ARE the product... you still don't get it?
Please explain that in more detail.
LOL are you 5 years old to need more details to explain what happen when YOU are the product?
Yup if it’s free, you and your personal information are the cost you are paying. What price tag do you put on that?
What personal information are we talking about in the case of Wallet of Satoshi. "Personal information" is a nice headline for now, but what exactly are we talking about?
Nothing is free in this world.
This!
But this was not the question of the post.... We all know that the app collects data etc.
It is very well. You asked "what is your opinion about WoS". So we answered. I don't know what do you want more.
If you only read the headline, you might think that. The text of the post itself clearly states: "Is this only possible with large amounts of money from outside? --- So I already implement the assumption that data is collected and sold. And your very useful answer to that, in a nutshell, is "They collect your data you 5 year old". So again, thank you for your valuable participation.
This you?
https://scholarhacker.files.wordpress.com/2023/09/doing-bitcoin-wrong-2.jpg
well said, and I didn't know about this.
Ok I get the point, we probably have completely different views on which definition of personal data is relevant at all
If you want to use a custodial account, at least use one that is not depending on such services like google...
it doesn't matter. Is enough that they are USING you.
Every LN transaction contains info (description) of where you spent the sats.
Even though login is optional for WOS, Most users will still prefer to login with their email to have a backup, if they lose their phone.
And there are many number of data they can collect, which might include IP address, Device ID
Thanks for the answer. The collect and sell data, I already implement in the question. However, I'm starting to realize that I should have written in more detail. Is the answer really: the whole thing is a pure data collecting and selling machine? Is there no information on actual numbers?
It's a tool.
You look at it, judge your needs, compare with the other options in the market and make your call.
I know people generally mean well but the dogmatic "woS iS sHiTZ" is quite silly in my opinion. It's a great tool for many situations.
Try Phoenix...
Not the point here
I know. I don't trust them.
I use wallet of satoshi for convince and for tips. Well, I use tipcards.io that teaches people how to use WOS.
I also use it for zaps.
I know it's non-custodial, so whatever sats I keep in that wallet has some rug-pull risk. Some dude at a conference(I wish I remembered his name) said he keeps up to a thousand bucks worth of bitcoin on WOS because his phone cost about a thousand bucks. He said if he lost his phone, he would be pissed off, but it's not the end of the world. He could buy another phone. The same is true if WOS rug pulled 4 million sats or whatever, he would be pissed, but he could still replace the sats.
I hashtag heart this idea. 🧡
Of course, you wouldn't want to put your life savings on WOS and if you're on stacker.news, I'm sure you know this. The danger is in ignorance. I think we need to do a better job of informing neophyte bitcoiners of this risk.
I've also been doing a deep dive on Mutiny wallet. It has potential. If they implement lightning addresses, I'll stop using wallet of satoshi. The nostr stuff is cool and you can make automatic monthly payments. I'm still researching it though.
That's my two sats.
Just to prevent further confusion, WoS is custodial:
Custodial = They hold and control your keys
Non-Custodial/Self-Custodial = You hold and control your keys
We need better, less confusing terms.
Mutiny wallet is non-custodial, but if you're using Mutiny wallet and their servers they can still access your funds, I think. If you use Mutiny wallet with your own server then you're truly non-custodial.
They cannot access your funds, but they can see what addresses and transactions your wallet is querying for. So it's more of a privacy concern if you're using their servers.
Let's assume they are not making profit now. but they are getting a huge customers who signup in the app, especially when it comes to users who are using the app for it's wonderful UX and less concerned about it being custodial.
In Future, if they want to be a payment processor like Bitpay, they could turn it into a huge business model.
You are right, there is very less info of their company or customer base. All we know is that, they are based in Australia
That is, the assumption that funds are available and in speculation that the profits will flow in the future. I can go along with this assumption. Thank you for your time to write.
Also they maintain their own node, and proof of funds and channels can be found here https://1ml.com/node/035e4ff418fc8b5554c5d9eea66396c227bd429a3251c8cbc711002ba215bfc226
Thank you very much! Now that's a useful source.
I wish it was self custody
agreed
Easy to use. It's the my little pony of lightning. It's so straight forward anyone can use it.
Once you graduate, you move on to pheonix or mutiny or something like that.
But for myfirstlightningwallet WoS does a good job.
Full disclosure, WoS was indeed my first lightning wallet.
It was my first Lightning wallet too. No shame in that haha
Could be a honey pot run or even directly financed by a gov to prob the network and gather datas on it. I think they are part of a parent company whose business is shitcoining "Living room of Satoshi". They are not very vocal in Bitcoin Circles which is strange as one of the biggest LN Wallet and node. Honestly there are lots of shadows around them. I can't be sure they are evil, after all they are NKYC used all around the world without borders, but for sure can't trust them blindly either.
I use Phoenix and my node with Zeus personally, and if I have to receive a payment while fearing to be offline, I prefer Blink which is even better even for noobs, but much less shady, created by well known Bitcoiners to help El Salvador adopting Bitcoin. I'd prefer people to use Blink by default to be introduced to LN rather than WoS if I had to choose
This was an answer with value. Thanks for sharing you opinion
I think they are the same group that run living room of satoshi. Its a website that you can pay bills in Bitcoin (also crypto).
I just remember they were one of the first to have a lightning product built for the masses.
It is kinda interesting how you don't see much about them in Bitcoin circles. I guess they can do what they like
Are you more positive or negative about the whole thing?
TBH its the best app to orange pill a newbie. Getting them to see how fast & easy bitcoin has become breaks their stereotype that its slow & expensive.
However, if its a good friend you should probably get them to hold their own keys. In this case WoS is not the wallet of choice.
The name Wallet of Satoshi couldn't be any more inadequate. Satoshi would never give permission to use the name in a product like this.
agreed
Fake Lightning
Are there any resources you can share to research information or tips on this yourself?
like others have said, it's a tool that can be useful in some situations, like the first contact for no-coiners. You talk to someone in the bar, in 3 minutes he can install the app, log-in with his usual email address, check the ultra-simple UI and receive some sats. Boom! He "has" bitcoin!
Going to ditch it. Latest Phoenix with splicing is working well for me now!
Does it work well with Nostr zaps?
I only use nostr on a desktop browser + alby for zaps.
Hopefully replacements like Zeus and Munity will rise and offer people easier solutions to protect their sats from getting rugged
It's a good wallet but does have its flaws just use it as a hot wallet for now to spend from but am slowly migrating more to mutiny and Phoenix
If they want to "steal" your money, they can do it, no matter if you know who they are or not. That's the whole point of using a non-custodial wallet. To avoid any rugpull.
Aussie software! 🤘
Great guys who have supported my ESU programs for years!
They make their money from livingroomofsatoshi
I see walletofsatoshi as a means of them giving back to the community.
Yea lack of info about who holds your btc is concerning. Consider all you have there to be lost one day.
Yup def get a hardware wallet :)
It's a good in-between link for robosats
They also charge for onchain swaps which lot of people use.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to find out any really comprehensible information or more detailed figures on such incomes.
Do an onchain swap to see the fees. Buissnesses don't just publish all their financial statements
I use it for small amounts. Also sometimes as a proxy when receiving lightning payments from random strangers to not dox pubkey of my node(s) to everybody. On my iPhone I have both WoS and Phoenix installed. And also Zeus connected to Alby for Nostr zaps (need to have separate wallet with small balance for that, as because Apple disallow direct zaps to notes I use Zapple Pay, which is app I grant permission to do payments on my behalf).
Ditto the tool example. I mostly use it for zaps on #nostr, but occasionally I allows for fast routing of larger transactions en route to cold storage.
I don't think they need that much money since it's not a corporation that needs to pump it's stocks.
Bitwarden charges $10 a year for the premium service.
The really sad part about WoS is that it has the best UX for someone using lightning for the first time.
Pity it sucks in every other way
I use it like a spending wallet and it’s so easy to use
https://www.walletofsatoshi.com/disclosure
They're a shitcoin
deleted by author
deleted by author