21 sats \ 22 replies \ @Rsync25 14 Nov 2023 \ parent \ on: Mutiny Wallet forced closed, on-chain balance zero bitcoin
LDK have issues.
I know. That's why I am very reticent using LDK wallets as daily apps. I just test them to know how are working.
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I accept FCs being "issues", but a bug that causes loss of funds to me is a more serious matter as Mutiny calls itself self custodial. But if the LSP is able to sweep your funds then it clearly is not actually self custodial. So unless I'm missing something Mutiny seems to be misrepresenting itself. However, if this issue is not just Mutiny but other wallets like Phoenix too that would be a major concern as I have more sats in Phoenix and am also under the assumption it's "self custodial". But if this is an illusion I will need to rethink my threat model.
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But if the LSP is able to sweep your funds then it clearly is not actually self custodial.
The reason the LSP was able to sweep funds was because what is essentially a bug in Mutiny lead to an invalid, revoked, transaction being signed and published by the Mutiny wallet. This can also be an attempt at fraud, intended to steal money from the LSP. So the Lightning protocol deals with this by allowing the LSP to sweep all the funds, discouraging attempts at fraud.
Harsh. But still self-custodial.
The solution here is to use better wallets that don't have bugs like this. IIUC Mutiny is particularly vulnerable due to bugs in the underlying web browser storage implementation, which can lead to state information not being recorded/modified correctly.
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But if the LSP is able to sweep your funds then it clearly is not actually self custodial.
This is how all lightning works, and is not specific to Mutiny, LDK, or any other lightning node software. If you run two copies of your lightning node, one is behind, and that one that is behind force-closes, you will lose your funds. Sadly iOS-PWA has a bug which has been causing that for Mutiny, but they've been working with their LSP to send users their funds back in that case.
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Not sure if this is an issue specifically for Mutiny. I think is more about LDK. Let's not forget that Mutiny is an "interface" for the LDK node under the hood.
If Phoenix app will have the same issue, it doesn't mean that is Phoenix app fault because the Acinq node behind is having issues.
Let's separate these things and treat them separately.
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That's point.
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Maybe you should pay attention to the beta warning. That should be in your threat model.
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Perfect. I'm building an app use LDK, I'm thinking remove and add other lightning implementations.
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other options are harder to uses by a mile...
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Why?
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Sadly there are only really three (and a half) options for integrating lightning into an existing application - (full) LDK, ldk-node, greenlight/breez, and (kinda) LND. Integrating LND into an existing application is a ton of work, and lots to maintain, so generally hasn't been something people do, or have stuck with long-term.
The full LDK interface is a lot of work, but very flexible in terms of how it gets integrated into an existing application, with customization for how/where you store your data, how you generate all key material, how/where you get blockchain data from, how/where you do signing operations, several different models of potential watchtower integration, etc, etc. This is great if you need some of that customization, but if not its a lot of work just to build the same thing everyone else has.
ldk-node is a standard node that does all the usual things to build a lightning node, packaged up with a super simple API (start node, open channel, pay money, list transactions) that handles storage and keys and blockchain sync for you. It works great on mobile, and has some flexibility, but is generally targeted at devs who just want something that just works.
greenlight/breez SDK are fairly similar to ldk-node in their API design, but unlike ldk-node they rely on hosting from greenlight/blockstream and integration with the breez LSP, rather than being able to choose your own.
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You can use your own LSP with the Breez SDK
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Ah, apologies, I didn't realize that.
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Good points Matt. I'll rethink again. I still no removed LDK.
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If you're using either LDK option, please join our discord! We try very hard to help developers using LDK or ldk-node as much as possible, and appreciate hearing from developers what is going wrong or what they're struggling with. This allows us to improve the interfaces going forward, as well as help developers resolve issues quickly rather than struggling.
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Of course! :)
Does Phoenix use LDK?
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No, Phoenix is using Eclair implementation.
Eclair in French means lightning. Acinq - the dev team behind Eclair and Phoenix is a french team
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Ok. Thanks Darth that is reassuring I guess.
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Exactly
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This is a property of LN. I can go through LND and CLN GitHub issues and pull many instances of funds being revoked and swept by the other counterparty due to software bugs. This has nothing to do with LDK explicitly.
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Make sense
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