I do like the fact that people are TAKING INITIATIVE and working to create things, to build alternative/better solutions ourselves. One of the biggest things that has always irked me about the Bitcoin community in recent years, has been the tendency for people to seem to want to wait for some kind of outside party or organized effort to come along and finish building something and have it working 100% perfectly before they'd dare to consider even thinking about using it.
There's a slightly similar, and equally annoying issue IMHO, when it comes to the general approach to making any kinds of changes to Bitcoin. Even if said changes would objectively improve the end-user experience, boost real-world use/adoption of the network as a means of transacting payments and bring new people into the world of Bitcoin, even the mere mention that you might be possibly thinking about making any changes/improvements is treated by some as an outright heretical statement. They act as if you've personally attacked them, and some will even take it upon themselves to respond in kind.
I've been around this scene for far too long, and I'm way too jaded to possibly care about possibly harming the delicate sensibilities of such people merely by speaking my mind, so I'm not at all too shy to come right out and say it: lightning, in it's current form, is simply inadequate. Sure, it's come a long way -- but it's also been a loooooooooooooong fucking time in the making, and unfortunately, a lot of people seem to want to dance around the very real limitations which are in place, and which have been in place, from the start of things. Limitations which effectively guarantee that we'll never see the kind of widespread, global adoption of Bitcoin via lightning as it's layer 2 network, because it's just not technically possible to do so. Anyway, I've already said too much, this post is going to draw the ire of some of the kinds of folks who are alluded to above.
I just wanted to say that I am glad to catch a (sadly rarer these days) glimpse of someone who is just going for it and building something on Bitcoin, armchair critics and naysayers be damned. The same thing happened with Ordinals, which was met with some of the most insanely overblown kvetching and bitching from people in the Bitcoin space that I have ever seen...those whining are the kinds who think EVERYONE must do things their way, they know how it should be and if you don't follow them, you are living in a "fiat mindset", whatever the fuck that means. Real cult shit, if you ask me. I think Ordinals represents one of the more exciting things to come to Bitcoin in a long time, the underlying technological approach is brilliant both in it's elegant simplicity (conceptual) and expansive, complex implemented features (in spite of the limitations imposed upon it from the beginning, as something which would have to utilize the existing network infrastructure/design without changing it to suit Ordinals).
Please, keep shaking things up. When I get some more free time later, I'll have to see about giving you a hand on this repo...as it is, it's not very "user friendly" having to try and copy info from the console on most browsers, given that you can't selectively copy and paste the text from info entries (at least on Chrome/Chromium browsers that I imagine most people will be using).
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Bro , ordinals are a shitcoin.
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Ask me anything
I probably won't answer but asking is fun too
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So, its kinda like Lightning, but more scuffed
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correct, it is kinda like lightning:
  • it is an off chain protocol
  • it allows unlimited off-chain back and forth payments
  • these payments are compatible with and routable through the real lightning network
it is also more scuffed:
  • force closures are less efficient
  • not everything is tested
  • it doesn't have a built in p2p network so it's slower
  • it doesn't use source routing so it's less private
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"Like the lightning network but you'll probably lose all your money" xD
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It would be interesting to see a different spin on the Lightning network that has no interest in being compatible, ideally something with a web native transport like nostr.
Giving Blockstream a say in the spec of the current network has been the source of most of its problems, which they keep trying to make worse.
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there is a version of the frightening network here that uses nostr for message transport
but it sucks
nostr relays typically rate limit you to about 6 messages per 5 minute period
but on the frightening network you send your peer about 12 messages interactively, all within a few seconds, in order to do a state update
so nostr rate limits me and then there's a force close because your counterparty seems like he stopped responding mid-state-update
nostr seems to suck for this purpose
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nostr is just json over websockets, so it sounds like relays are using it wrong should do cooler stuff like this.
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it is true that's all nostr is (well, mostly...it also does some data caching), but there is a saying I try to keep to heart:
if you offer something free, people will take it
nostr relays cannot offer free bandwidth and storage forever because (1) those things cost money, which is a scarce resource (2) bots will consume all of the free bandwidth and storage you offer, and by extension they will consume all of the money it costs you to provide those things for free, until you run out of money, at which point you must cease operations
in order to survive and escape/avoid that doom loop, relay operators must ensure that their income exceeds the aggregate costs of bot activity on their relays
rate limits are one way to help with that. They help keep aggregate costs low and predictable
so by having them, "free relays" aren't "using it wrong," they are managing their costs, which is a precondition for sustainably offering a service for free. No service with unbounded costs and unreliable income can survive long, therefore rate limits are a survival mechanism
but it has consequences: stuff that needs to go beyond the standard rate limits (like the frightening network) cannot rely on free relays
users would need to register with a paid relay, and that sucks...or at least it feels like it right now. I have a feeling though that paid relays are actually a good thing, and are the very thing that will ensure nostr's success in the long term
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I think a lot of value will be unlocked in the world when the norm of 'everything on the internet is free' dies.
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There's no such thing as free infrastructure is true of nostr or otherwise, a nostr native solution is a 10x cost and friction reduction compared to current LN where a few sats to a relay vs. several dollars for a web-server or custodian. More problematically, the network friction is causing untold numbers to not use Lightning at all.
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There's no such thing as free infrastructure is true of nostr or otherwise
Agreed
a nostr native solution is a 10x cost and friction reduction
I disagree, though I suspect the potential is there to make a 10x cost reduction on nostr
a few sats to a relay vs. several dollars for a web-server or custodian
yes, this is promising...but I don't think we are there yet due to market immaturity in nostr. E.g. it seems to me that relays often take the money and run, whereas web servers do that less often. The market seems to be on a path toward maturity though and I am hopeful
More problematically, the network friction is causing untold numbers to not use Lightning at all
Yes and this is true for nostr too
For now
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My framework for relay sustainability is something like ngrok, a web gateway for self-hosted (decentralized) applications, like Lightning nodes.
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What are most of its problems, and how is Blockstream trying to make it worse?
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The overall lack of web-ness necessitating the slow and fragile p2p network. CLN couldn't even be arsed with REST. Now the Bolt12 psyop doubles down on that while mints stand to benefit.
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@supertestnet is a building machine!
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