At some point you have to trust, for me it begins with the Lightning network
137 sats \ 13 comments \ @y 16 Jun 2022 bitcoin freebie
Having been using Bitcoin for many years, I see the value in running a Bitcoin Core node. I am comfortable with this tech.
However, and perhaps it’s because I’m getting older and loosing my acumen for learning new tech, I cannot envision myself ever running a lightening node as I don’t fully understand what’s happening “under the hood”. I understand the high level concepts, but doubt I could ever feel safe running a lightening node given that I perceive (from posts on this website) doing so is fraught with peril. Part of me also doesn’t fundamentally want to learn because I’ve been “down in the weeds” before learning about on-chain bitcoin, and I just don’t have it in me to do it again with lightning. I think this is because it’s mentally exhausting to continually “not trust”.
That the leads me to accept that my personal lightening wallet use will never be fully noncustodial, which is a view I had been resisting but am now growing comfortable with. And as a result, that same trust will continue upward as the bitcoin tech stack grows (like with chaumian mints, etc). So like I said in the title, at some point you have to start trusting, for me I’m deciding it’s at the lightning network level.
Thoughts?
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3 sats \ 0 replies \ @cointastical 16 Jun 2022
I just learned that I've been using a wallet (SBW) where the hosted channel I'm using is pretty much running on autopilot, as the owner of the node is serving his country against the Russian invasion. And even knowing that, I've still used it.
With that wallet, I keep maybe a max of $25 worth of bitcoin -- for things where I want to pay from my mobile that I carry with me. I've never used LN for a P2P trade, but as RoboSats grows, I could see where that opportunity may come, and thus I would probably decide to go with some other option -- maybe even a custodial one but it swould only be one that I feel can be trusted, due to the higher amount (e.g., Wallet Of Satoshi).
Of course, I can run my own LN node -- but as you mention, there i more "under the hood" to be able to do that. For example, if I want to use this for a $200 trade, I need to have $200 worth of inbound liquidity (if buying bitcoin), or $200 of outbound (if selling).
So you are right. An account with LN support (like your account here on SN), or an account with an LN bank (e.g., Wallet of Satoshi), or a wallet with LN support where using a hosted channel is a choice available (such as with SBW or BlueWallet) -- these all provide convenience and it is likely how the vast majority of people who use Lightning will operate. Does that mean millions of people are using a few of these banks (e.g., Wallet of Satoshi, CoinOS, etc)?
Not necessarily. Maybe the open source Bitcoin Beach wallet, which uses a multisig shared custody model, will become more widely implemented. Maybe down to family groups even.
Nicolas Burtey (Galoy) on the shared custody model of Bitcoin Beach Wallet
So essentially, we have numerous choices. If you want financial privacy and to control the keys, run your own LN Node, there's no alternative. If you want convenience only, use a custodial account (e.g., Wallet Of Satoshi). Want some where you aren't using an account on a third party service, nor a bank like Wallet of Satoshi, but something in the middle, find (or form) a tribe you trust that has implemented Bitcoin Beach's multisig shared custody.
And it's not like you are storing your life's savings on LN. Your LN wallet is primarily for transactions, not for use to store significant amounts of value.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @tomlaies 16 Jun 2022
I don't think that's bad. Only move as far and as fast as you're comfortable. You can get into Lightning nodes in a few years if you feel to exhausted now, there is nothing wrong with that.
I also don't think people have to understand the nitty gritty of the protocol - understanding the high level idea is completely enough to run your own node.
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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @nullcount 16 Jun 2022
Lighting, Lightening, Lightning.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @y OP 16 Jun 2022 freebie
Sorry! Between being a bad speller and autocorrect I’m a lost cause lol.
0 sats \ 0 replies \ @arrowdrive 17 Jun 2022
Projects like Blixt Wallet are making non-custodial Lightning wallets easy. It runs a full non-custodial LND node on your phone with an easy to use interface to open channels. It will even automatically open your first channel when you send on-chain funds by default and you can turn on the Dunder LSP so that a channel is automatically opened toward you when you don’t have enough inbound liquidity.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @0260378aef 17 Jun 2022
It's interesting and probably laudable that your reason for not running a LN node is that you don't understand LN - which itself is completely understandable, as it's a very tricky set of concepts to patch together - arguably even more so than "the blockchain".
I perceive (from posts on this website) doing so is fraught with peril.
It's not that bad. What I have on my LN is a very small fraction of my sats, similar to what I would put on a phone wallet. And I don't trust the latter further than I could throw it.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 17 Jun 2022
I suspect many people think running a node is complicated but can just be an app on your phone. Phoenix Wallet is a LN node for example. It doesn't route payments, it only does your own payments
I will say than LN probably doesn't scale if 7B has to run their own node :) but I'm not sure
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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Majjin 16 Jun 2022
The point of Bitcoin is not to remove trust from everything. I personally think its impossible to make everything trustless. Even if it was, making everything trustless would make us into entirely atomized individuals with no communities, which is a bad thing.
I think that Bitcoin puts trust back where it belongs: family, friends, community. Too long our trust has been with people and organizations who don't know and don't care that we exist. When you learn about Bitcoin, you figure out that with trust comes risk. That's not a bad thing, its just a tradeoff. That tradeoff has been obfuscated by our current system. So people just blindly trust the people and organizations that don't care about them.
I say that as long as you know the risks and you're okay with said risks, allowing yourself to trust at the Lightning level is fine.
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1 sat \ 1 reply \ @0260378aef 17 Jun 2022
Too long our trust has been with people and organizations who don't know and don't care that we exist.
While it's difficult to argue with that, I'd point out that Bitcoin does not care whether you exist, and that's absolutely as it should be.
you figure out that with trust comes risk. That's not a bad thing, its just a tradeoff. That tradeoff has been obfuscated by our current system.
I couldn't agree more. This is the biggest obvious problem with our society to me, the infantilisation of people and even of corporations. Forest fires need to happen etc.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Majjin 17 Jun 2022
I'd point out that Bitcoin does not care whether you exist, and that's absolutely as it should be.
That's true! However, Bitcoin is trust minimized. I don't need all the miners and node runners to care about me or my existence because I barely need to trust them. I can just verify the data I get from them with my own node. Our current institutions are trust maximized and don't care out those who trust them.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @note_bene 16 Jun 2022
Interesting point, but it's a bit of the reverse for me: LN nodes seems a lot more natural to me coming from a tinkering with web tech background, while on-chain stuff seems a lot more shrouded in mystery in terms on encodings and secp256k1 etc, that's stuff I feel like I have to trust works.
That being said, I do think there's scary implications for LN nodes where lots of coins in hot wallets on self-maintained servers that are open to being poked on the internet; a zero-day for remote code execution could make a lot of people lost their shirt.
But maybe that's where the "diversity in immune systems" from plebnets come in; with enough difference in server and node software, one bug can't wipe them all out.
I built an app that uses LNURL last weekend, posted it here, and it got the wallet emptied (10K sats) within twenty minutes. This was because I did something stupid, and the point being if your funds are still there when you wake up, it's not for a lack of trying by adversarial actors, which gives credence to the idea your not just "trusting" but have been tested and found secure.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @gms 16 Jun 2022
If you don't feel safe, wait⚡
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @why 16 Jun 2022
wai
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