Seeing a balance of ⚡ 502 000 implies that all the funds are spendable on Lightning, even if they're not (which's the case for wallets like Bitkit that also support on-chain balances). Lightning might not be the main method for transacting bitcoin in the future, so associating "sats" so closely with it is limiting.
You could make the UX better by treating onchain and LN balances as a unified balance and allow spending from both.
That doesn't solve the overarching problem. What about wallets that don't have Lightning?
But I'm sure this symbol is the bigger UX problem affecting users of Bitcoin /s
The lack of a sats symbol is certainly not the "bigger UX problem affecting user of Bitcoin". We don't believe that. There are many problems to be solved, and we can work on solving all of them!
Small UTXOs are becoming dust due to high fees. But we need another symbol to represent those units which are now unspendable /s
There are many problems to be solved in Bitcoin, and a sats symbol is not the only one or the main one, but it's one of them. Many Bitcoiners are working on solving different, independent issues. That's the beauty of decentralization. There's no Bitcoin Foundation dictating which issue of the roadmap should be prioritized!
Seeing a balance of ⚡ 502 000 implies that all the funds are spendable on Lightning
I think that won't matter in the long run.[1] A lot of words we use don't really make sense but words change their meaning all the time.
Most people won't even know about lightning. They'll just use the symbol without thinking about it. And if anyone asks why we use a lightning bolt as the currency symbol, we'll just respond with: "For historical reasons."
I don't even think it implies that. It's already just a symbol for sats for me. ↩
Another issue is that the ⚡ Unicode symbol gets rendered as an emoji when typed. A currency symbol that is an emoji will never be taken seriously. We could use ϟ instead, but it looks Harry Potter's scar reversed. There's ↯ as well, but it's too bearish.
Bitkit will be here for a long time, no plans to add USDT anytime soon, and it'll never go full shitcoinery. We're working hard to build a great Bitcoin wallet and hope you're open to giving Bitkit another chance!
Seeing a balance of ⚡ 502 000 implies that all the funds are spendable on Lightning, even if they're not (which's the case for wallets like Bitkit that also support on-chain balances).
The kebab was introduced in 2021, yet today it's only used by a handful of products (Envoy/Passport, Lightspark, LNMarkets, Thunderhub). There isn't even consensus around it among bitcoiners, so there's almost zero chance of it ever becoming a Unicode symbol, which puts it on a death spiral it has been in the past years (no unicode symbol > no adoption > no unicode). On top of that, the kebab resembles the ETH symbol (Ξ).
Yeah, I've never been a fan. Confused the fuck out of me when I saw it on Thunderhub the first time. Just wanted to clarify bc I've never thought the lightning bolt represented sats... just LN in general.
I think eventually the $ could work, but there's going to be a long period of time with both in the system and it won't fly culturally or technically, as the books all record dollars with $.
Why associate sats with a symbol that today represents fiat? We're trying to build a new monetary system, not a new version of what already exists! Wouldn't it be more symbolic to let $ become a relic from the past? Something that our grandgrandkids learn about on museums?
but still, the meaning it carries today is not only that of its origin but of what it became
and today, $ doesn't mean good things 🤷♂️
besides, sats and other currencies that use $ in their symbols will coexist for a long time (possibly for long after we're dead). the moment when it's time to migrate from "sats" to $ won't be well-defined. $ will remain ambiguous for many people around the world. the turkish lira, argentine peso, and nigerian naira are still being used today despite, in practice, being dead!
is $1000 = 1000 sats? 1000 NZD? 1000 MXN? As we approach sat:usd parity, this will get more blurry!
SAT, USD - same length.
However, as a UI designer, I understand the need have a symbol taking up just one character. Not always there is a space for "SAT"
Indeed. And even when there's enough space, $ looks better than USD on pretty much every screen. The same will go for an SAT symbol compared to "SAT"...
"Dollars" is dumb. It should use USD, AUD, CAD, etc. because there are many "dollars" with different exchange rates.
There are only sats. Whats a worse UI? Using a symbol nobody has seen before? And is difficult to type on a standard keyboard? Or writing 4 letters that are instantly understood?
Money symbols are a relic of pen and paper when number of penstokes needed to be optimized. These days we optimize for keystrokes.
If I need to use a new symbol for "sats", here's how I'd do it 90% of the time:
Google the phrase "sats symbol", Then Copy paste. What an UX improvement! /s
Why not just use the metric system to represent fractions of Bitcoin?
1μ₿ = 100sats.
1m₿ = 100,000sats
I liked when milliBitcoins and "bits" were a trend.
Using Satoshis as fractions is confusing because it is neither a microBitcoin not nanoBitcoin but something in between.
To add more confusion to the mix milliSats is now a thing too. So maybe we should just say 100MegaSats instead of 1BTC and drop the bitcoin as a unit altogether?
What is the "logical" denomination will change over time. At one point a car cost a million bitcoin, now it costs one. So likewise we will go through denominations of sats.
I like kSats as a denomination because I think it's logical, not too big, and it sounds like a radio station!
I also like the idea of a cultural standard for a "zap", like 10 sats. But that might be confusing.
What is the "logical" denomination will change over time. At one point a car cost a million bitcoin, now it costs one. So likewise we will go through denominations of sats.
That's the point of the metric system. It can adapt.
I brought this up on Nostr last year. It's a little weird because it could become the mainstream currency, but at the same time, it's too small for people to bother with a symbol for most purposes. When I was a kid, we actually used the "cents" symbol for stuff. Now I don't even think people know what that symbol is.
It's a little weird because it could become the mainstream currency, but at the same time, it's too small for people to bother with a symbol for most purposes.
True! And if there's a time when we can settle on a symbol, that time is now. It'll only get harder as more people come onboard...
Announcement of the announcement. Of an unnecessary change.
Well done on getting our attention
😂 it'll sound more necessary and well deserving of your attention soon™
Yes! And this is the free market figuring it out! There's no Bitcoin Foundation forcing anyone to adopt this upcoming sats symbol, it's entirely voluntary!
⚡️
That's the sats symbol Bitkit uses today, but it'll soon be gone forever hahaha. Enjoy it while you can!
in what ways is the current symbol not working for Bitkit?
Seeing a balance of ⚡ 502 000 implies that all the funds are spendable on Lightning, even if they're not (which's the case for wallets like Bitkit that also support on-chain balances). Lightning might not be the main method for transacting bitcoin in the future, so associating "sats" so closely with it is limiting.
You could make the UX better by treating onchain and LN balances as a unified balance and allow spending from both.
But I'm sure this symbol is the bigger UX problem affecting users of Bitcoin /s
That doesn't solve the overarching problem. What about wallets that don't have Lightning?
The lack of a sats symbol is certainly not the "bigger UX problem affecting user of Bitcoin". We don't believe that. There are many problems to be solved, and we can work on solving all of them!
Small UTXOs are becoming dust due to high fees. But we need another symbol to represent those units which are now unspendable /s
There are many problems to be solved in Bitcoin, and a sats symbol is not the only one or the main one, but it's one of them. Many Bitcoiners are working on solving different, independent issues. That's the beauty of decentralization. There's no Bitcoin Foundation dictating which issue of the roadmap should be prioritized!
good point
I think that won't matter in the long run.[1] A lot of words we use don't really make sense but words change their meaning all the time.
Most people won't even know about lightning. They'll just use the symbol without thinking about it. And if anyone asks why we use a lightning bolt as the currency symbol, we'll just respond with: "For historical reasons."
I don't even think it implies that. It's already just a symbol for sats for me. ↩
Another issue is that the ⚡ Unicode symbol gets rendered as an emoji when typed. A currency symbol that is an emoji will never be taken seriously. We could use ϟ instead, but it looks Harry Potter's scar reversed. There's ↯ as well, but it's too bearish.
Oh yeah, because Bitkit will be going full shitcoinery with tether? Will be gone like Bitkit itself hahahaha
Bitkit will be here for a long time, no plans to add USDT anytime soon, and it'll never go full shitcoinery. We're working hard to build a great Bitcoin wallet and hope you're open to giving Bitkit another chance!
Maybe I missed something, but what did bitkit do in the past for people to get this impression about it?
Bitkit is developed by Synonym, a Tether-owned company. Synonym was the first company to put USDT on Lightning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfaqYeyake8
Initially, Synonym had plans to add USDT to Bitkit but has since deprioritized it.
Another one? Funny how people constantly try to reinvent the wheel.. curious to see what's will come out next week
In the meantime https://satsymbol.com/
Instead of finding a fix for those damn force closed channels, some people are more concerned about the sat symbol.
view on primal.netThis meme is second only to Bitcoin obits. Symbols, names, and unit campaigns are some of our favorite bikesheds.
An endless source of bikeshedding, indeed! In a few days, we'll publish another post delving deep into past proposals (including the kebab).
I like that one a lot.
It looks like the ETH symbol!
Is the other way around, is that symbol that looks like the sats one
The ETH symbol (Ξ) dates back to the early days of Ethereum in 2013. The kebab is from 2021.
.org > .com 👀
A post that is just a countdown to someone releasing a new proposal for a symbol for sats got 15k sats? whaaat?
it seems like people want a new sats symbol! 🤠
Guess so!
The lightning symbol⚡️ is enough for me
I got an email the other day from people who misused it, probably having never heard of either sats or LN.
https://m.stacker.news/14458
indeed... it's impossible to lock in the meaning of such ambiguous symbols
Officially that's high voltage
That's the sats symbol on Bitkit today, and it'll soon be gone forever hahaha. Enjoy it while you can!
As far as it is not trademarked, we good
hahaha don't worry, it won't be!
What was wrong with the previous one?
Seeing a balance of ⚡ 502 000 implies that all the funds are spendable on Lightning, even if they're not (which's the case for wallets like Bitkit that also support on-chain balances).
OP might be talking about this: https://satsymbol.com/
The kebab was introduced in 2021, yet today it's only used by a handful of products (Envoy/Passport, Lightspark, LNMarkets, Thunderhub). There isn't even consensus around it among bitcoiners, so there's almost zero chance of it ever becoming a Unicode symbol, which puts it on a death spiral it has been in the past years (no unicode symbol > no adoption > no unicode). On top of that, the kebab resembles the ETH symbol (Ξ).
Yeah, I've never been a fan. Confused the fuck out of me when I saw it on Thunderhub the first time. Just wanted to clarify bc I've never thought the lightning bolt represented sats... just LN in general.
Bitkit and Coinos use ⚡ as the sats symbol.
The reason I am less on SN is probably because posts like this reach the top.
In 6 days I will explain further!
just zapped you [?]10k so you don't abandon us! in 6 days you'll hopefully realize that posts like this are one more reason to be more on SN!
ha
this is dumb and unnecessary.
It'll hopefully look less dumb and more necessary when you see it in 7 days!
This is my first zap I clicked on lightning symbol and there was lightning. PS - I am new here.
welcome!
Whatever symbol they agree on will be globally accepted
vibes https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
😂 sad but true!
Yes... In the end, the ultimate sats symbol will be whatever people use!
Why people still looking for a sats symbol when is already there?
https://i.postimg.cc/bwyksnXH/Neo-matrix.jpg
welcome back! Hope you enjoyed... Bermuda?
I think eventually the $ could work, but there's going to be a long period of time with both in the system and it won't fly culturally or technically, as the books all record dollars with $.
yes, the moment when $ can be declared dead won't be as well-defined. specially considering how many currencies use $!
WTF! Welcome back @DarthCoin
Why associate sats with a symbol that today represents fiat? We're trying to build a new monetary system, not a new version of what already exists! Wouldn't it be more symbolic to let $ become a relic from the past? Something that our grandgrandkids learn about on museums?
Sometimes you need to step back and look at the surrounded things from a broader perspective... https://m.stacker.news/14434
😂
We're building on Bitcoin to get rid of the dirty, oil-soaked, blood-dripping fiat money.
We have the opportunity to create a new sats symbol that carries none of this negative connotation.
Let's get rid of $ just like we're getting rid of fiat!
Bitcoin is currency. $ is the symbol for currency.
It was actually first used for Spanish Pesos silver coins. It does not mean fiat nor dollars.
the origin of $ is disputed/unknown, yes
but still, the meaning it carries today is not only that of its origin but of what it became
and today, $ doesn't mean good things 🤷♂️
besides, sats and other currencies that use $ in their symbols will coexist for a long time (possibly for long after we're dead). the moment when it's time to migrate from "sats" to $ won't be well-defined. $ will remain ambiguous for many people around the world. the turkish lira, argentine peso, and nigerian naira are still being used today despite, in practice, being dead!
is $1000 = 1000 sats? 1000 NZD? 1000 MXN? As we approach sat:usd parity, this will get more blurry!
"sats" is the symbol
We can use "sats" and have a symbol! It's not mutually exclusive
Also, "sats" is fine when texting, but it takes up too much space on screens. It looks as awkward as "dollars" instead of $:
https://m.stacker.news/14426
SAT, USD - same length. However, as a UI designer, I understand the need have a symbol taking up just one character. Not always there is a space for "SAT"
Indeed. And even when there's enough space, $ looks better than USD on pretty much every screen. The same will go for an SAT symbol compared to "SAT"...
"Dollars" is dumb. It should use USD, AUD, CAD, etc. because there are many "dollars" with different exchange rates.
There are only sats. Whats a worse UI? Using a symbol nobody has seen before? And is difficult to type on a standard keyboard? Or writing 4 letters that are instantly understood?
Money symbols are a relic of pen and paper when number of penstokes needed to be optimized. These days we optimize for keystrokes.
If I need to use a new symbol for "sats", here's how I'd do it 90% of the time:
Google the phrase "sats symbol", Then Copy paste. What an UX improvement! /s
sats
Why not just use the metric system to represent fractions of Bitcoin? 1μ₿ = 100sats. 1m₿ = 100,000sats I liked when milliBitcoins and "bits" were a trend. Using Satoshis as fractions is confusing because it is neither a microBitcoin not nanoBitcoin but something in between. To add more confusion to the mix milliSats is now a thing too. So maybe we should just say 100MegaSats instead of 1BTC and drop the bitcoin as a unit altogether?
What is the "logical" denomination will change over time. At one point a car cost a million bitcoin, now it costs one. So likewise we will go through denominations of sats.
I like kSats as a denomination because I think it's logical, not too big, and it sounds like a radio station!
I also like the idea of a cultural standard for a "zap", like 10 sats. But that might be confusing.
bitcoin is the first currency ever where a redenomination would add, not remove digits. hyperdeflation. fascinating!
That's the point of the metric system. It can adapt.
It's indeed confusing to navigate all possibilities! We should definitely aim to simplify things. There's enough complexity around Bitcoin!
I kind of like Parman's sats symbol, a 2 and a 1 overlaid.
view on x.comhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAjOTjPbkAAtaum?format=jpg&name=small
Dazzle me
We will!
Agreed, you are trying to make it a unique brand.
Bitcoin behaves like a brand, sats should too!
Agreed, you are trying to make it a unique brand.
https://m.stacker.news/14532
It looks similar to some past ideas here: https://blog.bitkit.to/the-quest-for-the-ultimate-sats-symbol-a-post-mortem-ba7d6c56a513
https://m.stacker.news/14527
Reminds me of some past ideas here: https://blog.bitkit.to/the-quest-for-the-ultimate-sats-symbol-a-post-mortem-ba7d6c56a513
Satsymbol.com is the correct link. Similar as to when Taro pulled a CMYK on RGB. Shitcoiners gonna shitcoin.
Well, you got everyone reacting. Mission accomplished.
There's nothing shitcoiny about satsymbol.org, and you'll see it in a few days. We hope you like it!
Oh i know. Just wanted to illustrate i can be disingenuous too. i hope you liked it!
A solution in search of a problem.
There are bigger problems to be solved, sure, but this doesn't mean that the smaller ones should be forgotten!
Shitcoin mentality
the idea is obviously a lightning bolt, with a division symbol thrown in as the dots.
Of course we could be off track with the lightning bolt, as it's possible lightning won't even be the standard operating area for most people.
I think I'd like something with a "Z" for "zaps"... but that's already used for zcash
I prefer $ as sats symbol.
We're building on Bitcoin to get rid of the dirty, oil-soaked, blood-dripping fiat money.
We have the opportunity to create a new sats symbol that carries none of this negative connotation.
Let's get rid of $ just like we're getting rid of fiat!
Benefits of $ is that it's part of standard 7-bit ASCII character set.
true! one of the biggest reasons the kebab never got adopted is that it's not an unicode symbol...
I really like the actual one. It’ll be difficult to make it better. I’ll keep an eye.
you mean the one that looks like the ETH symbol (Ξ)?
丰 This one I mean. Btw I donno know how the Eth logo is exactly but i think is like rombe.
that's the ETH symbol overlapped with | hahahaha
丰
that looks like the ETH symbol (Ξ), a vertical wreck symbol used on nautical charts and multiple Chinese Mandarin characters
🤮
Kabeb
There is already a Sats symbol used at different places as for instance at boltz.exchange or at the satoshistore.io.
The only thing that seems not to be standardized yet is the "angle of slope" ;-)
However if it would be something completely different, it would be quite confusing.
Overall I think that a new symbol to get rid of the many decimal points would be a good thing.
I think using $ or 🗲 is confusing for adoption.
It's also on Envoy/Passport, Lightspark, LNMarkets, and Thunderhub. But not much adoption for a symbol introduced back in 2021...
Agree!
I brought this up on Nostr last year. It's a little weird because it could become the mainstream currency, but at the same time, it's too small for people to bother with a symbol for most purposes. When I was a kid, we actually used the "cents" symbol for stuff. Now I don't even think people know what that symbol is.
True! And if there's a time when we can settle on a symbol, that time is now. It'll only get harder as more people come onboard...
Announcement of the announcement. Of an unnecessary change.
Well done on getting our attention.
Speaking of lightning.... you sure are a lightning rod, @mattcrv !
I hope that's a good thing! ⚡
The free market will fegure it out
Yes! And this is the free market figuring it out! There's no Bitcoin Foundation forcing anyone to adopt this upcoming sats symbol, it's entirely voluntary!
deleted by author
The hype will pay off 🫡!