Crossing Dubious Borders With Bitcoin \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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5973 sats \ 31 comments \ @OT 15 Feb bitcoin

In a few months my family and I will need to visit some relatives in China. They haven't seen the kids yet and I want to see them before the world gets too cucked. So.... I'm in a bit of a pickle as of what to do with the bitcoin on my phone, and in particular the lightning channels. The opening/closing fee's look pretty good at the moment but I have a feeling it won't last long.

Anyway, I'd like to have some LN functionality to show some of my friends and relatives how it works and what they can do with it. I'm just thinking about how I want to cross the border and I'd appreciate some help from the SN hive mind.

Australian border force have the right to search through all your belonging including laptops, phones etc. China most likely also have the same rules too. I'm pretty sure they can't confiscate the funds unless it's over $10k, but I just don't really want anyone going through all my stuff. It's definitely nowhere near that much and I know haven't done anything wrong.

I have a few ideas as to how my family and I cross this border.

A: Don't do anything. Keep your phone as it is and hope for the best

B: Close channels and delete everything from the device and memorize seed/s

C: Don't close channels, don't take the device and live without bitcoin for a few months

D: Other

A37.5%

B12.5%

C18.8%

D31.3%

32 votes \ poll ended

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1520 sats \ 2 replies \ @benjaminchodroff 15 Feb freebie

I work and live in China, run a lightning node from home, and regularly cross the border with a hardware wallet and a phone with LN apps. Possessing Bitcoin that was obtained legally is NOT a crime and is protected as property under Chinese law. Attempting to sell Bitcoin as a company IS illegal, but doing it as a person as a form of barter is a grey area - as you are taking a risk that the other person may have illegally obtained money. Nonetheless it’s widely done in underground networks in China with Bitcoin and stablecoins.

The seed phrase should stay outside of China. If they ever forced me to hand over the crypto at the border, they could keep the hardware wallet and I’ll even give them the pin and passphrase to a small wallet containing a few hundred bucks ($5 wrench attack). My lightning node is on a server with a locally encrypted drive and backed up abroad. They can keep the server and if they are truly jerks they could keep the phone I use to access it.

Just buy a separate hardware wallet? Avoid crossing borders with a seed phrase to a significant cold wallet. Lightning nodes should contain small funds. If you are running the node from your phone with significant channels and want to avoid any potential disruption, it may be best to get a separate phone. Your relatives will need an App Store abroad and VPN to access LN apps. Happy to help further. I hope you help spread the word on Bitcoin.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 19 Feb

Are you on nostr or telegram? I'd like to ask you a few things if you don't mind.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Thanks for sharing your setup, sounds robust.

I got a bit paranoid running my node while living in China. Everything seems to be a grey area and although they mostly just let things go, there's always the possibility that you get in some kind of trouble.

153 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats 16 Feb

If u use phoenix wallet its no issue. Uninstal and instal back. You can either memorize the seed or have it hidden among other papers. Seed is essy to hide. Closing channels is the last option. Dont leave it to chance

213 sats \ 2 replies \ @Lost_dogz 15 Feb

I'd strongly advise to NOT take your normal phone into China. Literally everything will be monitored there. Buy a cheap second hand phone, transfer your SIM or use another one, install just the apps you really need, and a lightning wallet

143 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 15 Feb

Do exactly this except add that you should use an eSIM from silent.link for a minimum viable option, for bonus points do this on a GrapheneOS phone.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Thats the thing. All my LN nodes are set up on a pixel running Calyx.

Maybe I can get a cheap 2nd hand phone and restore a phoenix wallet or a custodial like a web based account like coinos.io.

172 sats \ 0 replies \ @OriginalSize 15 Feb

Burnertime.

106 sats \ 1 reply \ @KLT 15 Feb

So crazy that they can just go through your phone like that

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Yeah, AUS scares me more than China TBH.

111 sats \ 1 reply \ @senf 16 Feb

Install Phoenix, send sats and get a channel opened. Memorize the twelve words, wipe app data. When you're through security and in China, restore Phoenix by putting the twelve words back into the app. That's all you need to restore your lightning channel since you're connected to ACINQ's node.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Yes, this is probably one of my best options. I've done it before too. When I get back I can do the same with the main LN phone

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @DiedOnTitan 16 Feb

There is another option: On Samsung Android phones there is the Secure Folder. This is protected by the Knox Platform which has security approved by DoD among other entities FWIW. All apps and data stored in the Secure Folder are encrypted and can only be opened with a pin or biometrics. You can hide/obfuscate the Secure Folder by renaming it and burying it in your games folder, or even making the app invisible and accessible only by searching for it. Place all your LN/BTC apps that need to be secured into the hidden and renamed Secure Folder and then revert to option A and hope for the best. If you are not China's shit list, they will likely not mess with you too much. Had a friend who recently spent a month in China and had similar concerns, but no issues whatsoever.

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @PlebeiusG 15 Feb

Graphene OS

Use only FOSS apps. No google services. Hide seeds among your belongings.

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @TwoLargePizzas 15 Feb

I don't really know what you should do but I'm interested to see how it goes if you can report in.

101 sats \ 1 reply \ @justanumber 15 Feb

I'd lean towards deleting it off the device, then when you get thru the border see how things are. Maybe then you can download a lightning wallet and get a friend(s) or us here at SN to send a few sats to you, then you can show family how it works with a few sats.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Would be nice to be able to post on SN while over there. Wouldn't want to lose my cowboy hat either!

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @justanumber 15 Feb

Australian border force have the right to search through all your belonging including laptops, phones etc

I mean, they really have no right but they reckon to have given themselves the right.

Thanks for raising this. I have been meaning to ask a very similar question about potentially crossing borders safely with cold storage devices. Will probably make another post later

101 sats \ 2 replies \ @Signal312 15 Feb

This brainwallet sounded interesting to me:

Introducing easywallet: a simple and secure brainwallet

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Actually, when I was leaving China I memorized a wallet. I repeatedly went through the words in my head and wrote in down when I was safely on the other side.

But I have since forgotten it!

The thing I'm not sure about with these patterns is the order. It's SO important to have them in order. I need to think more about it, but thanks for sharing

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @02bcd3eeb0 16 Feb

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101 sats \ 0 replies \ @Malachi17 15 Feb

No sense in running a risk where there is no need to run one.

101 sats \ 2 replies \ @03479d0ee6 15 Feb

Depends on the the value, if rather small I would probably put it in a ecash wallet like minibits and keep the backup seed, if bigger ammount I would use onchain and take the seed. For any seed you could probably use https://www.borderwallets.com/

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT OP 16 Feb

Do you trust that you'll remember the order of the words?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @03479d0ee6 16 Feb

Put the pattern in your phone. Could even be your wallpaper. And the list you can store it online I guess. Or, don't know if it's safe but probably you can also switch the list words (offline in your pc) to fit an easy pattern that you can memorize like a straight line, and you just have to memorize the starting cell.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @gandules 16 Feb

If you have problems memorizing a seed take a Stoic book with you for reading and underline the 12 or 24 word in it.

Then restore when you are there and have just only necessary sats stash.

Good luck!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bitcoiner1 16 Feb

The funds are not in your phone, so you aren't doing anything ilegal.

If you have a credit card with a $20.000 limit, would you be doing an ilegal thing taking the card with you during the trip?

My advice is to turn off the phone and refuse to turn it on.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT OP 16 Feb

I agree that there is no bitcoin on the phone, its just a signing device.

As for just not turning on the phone... I think that's a pretty naive take. They can confiscate the device and hold you in jail because its the law.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @doofus 16 Feb

Does anyone have real-world experience crossing borders with Bitcoin wallets, especially into restrictive countries?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @doofus 16 Feb

Electric cars are important, but they alone can't solve congestion, sprawl, and the inherent inefficiencies of car-centric cities. Investing in robust public transportation networks, encouraging walkable and bikeable urban design, and rethinking land-use patterns should be priorities alongside EV adoption. We need a holistic approach, not just a technological swap. Does anyone have examples of cities or regions that are successfully integrating EVs and broader sustainable transportation initiatives? Where are we seeing policies that promote both technological and infrastructural changes for a truly sustainable future?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Karlm 16 Feb

Very nice