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50 sats \ 5 replies \ @gnilma 18 Feb \ on: Discuss this Quote- Test post BooksAndArticles
I don't think the weakening of society is due to the loss of religion or due to the rise of science. I believe the weakening of society is due to the growing number of weakened individuals who grew weak through comfort and pleasure, aka good times. Allow me to explain...
Science, like religion, is just another idea. Human's ability to think allows us to come up with different ideas to explain and try to make sense of the many observations we make from this chaotic and ever changing world. There was the idea of the world being ruled by many different gods, god of thunder, god of the sea, god of the under world etc. There was also the idea that there is only one almighty god, who is omnipotent (all powerful), omnipresent (everywhere), omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenevolent (all loving). Science is just the idea that we can explain the behavior of the physical and natural world via observation, experimentation, and testing theories against collected evidence. But like the many religions that existed throughout history, science is also just an idea created by men; or in the words of the great Robert M. Pirsig, a ghost. What makes science special is its built in feedback and self correcting system; that when the existing models or laws are broken, scientists come up with new models and laws to better explain the new observation. For example, with the discovery of Relativity Theory, Newton's laws of motion were found to break near the speed of light and had to be amended to factor in time dilation and relativistic mass increase.
I believe that the idea of science, the idea of deriving laws through observation, experimentation, and evidence instead of deriving laws through an ancient book of text is not the cause of men growing weak. The system that admits to mistakes and self corrects is a virtuous, honorable, and moral system.
I also believe in the 4 turnings theory. That men are hardened and strengthened by challenges, adversity, hardship, aka bad times. That these strong men are capable of creating abundance and excess, aka good times, for future generations. Many individuals growing up in good times are well taken care of, entitled, and weak due to them never having to face adversity. As more individuals grow up weak under good times, it becomes the weakness in society that Durant speak of. They can be religious and believe in god, but still be weak men. Just because you have faith, it does not mean you are strong; and just because you are a man of science, it does not mean you are weak. When there are enough weak men in the society, they will wreak havoc and create bad times. Then the cycle repeats.
I agree with you. I don't think his intent was to say "science" makes societies weak but just noting that as societies advance they turn more towards science and that makes them doubt the religious "purpose" that once drove them to do the hard things. With an easier life and no purpose they just seek instant gratification.
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Turning to science is just individuals adopting new ideas. Them doubting religion is simply them raising questions and analyzing existing ideas through the lens of the new idea.
Religious purpose never drove men to do hard things. Hard things drove them to do hard things. More specifically, wanting to survive under hard things drove men to do hard things. Religious purpose was another ghost created by men to help cope with the harshness of reality. Men can be taught religious purpose and still be weak.
It is our past experiences and the ideas that we adopt that shape us. Those that were torched by fire and flames through the furnace became steel; those that sat around comfortably rusted.
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"Religious purpose never drove men to do hard things. Hard things drove them to do hard things."
Mostly agree with your statement but I don't know if I agree with this quote. I think that was likely true in the early days of humanity when the primary driver of purpose was merely survival and is likely true now. But there is a long history of humanity where rightly or wrongly almost everything humans did was centered in some element of their faith.
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But there is a long history of humanity where rightly or wrongly almost everything humans did was centered in some element of their faith.
Fair point. But their faith or ideas they adopted were only part of the decision making process. You can probably argue that it also cemented their determination to do hard things. But being determined to do something versus being capable of doing something is very different. It is our accumulated knowledge through history and our ability to think and be creative that gives us the capability of doing hard things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is determination matters, but at the same time we must not overlook the importance of knowledge and known how. No matter how determined you are, you are not lifting a big boulder without a lever.
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Agreed
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