Discuss this Quote- Test post \ stacker news ~BooksAndArticles

4381 sats \ 16 comments \ @grayruby 17 Feb BooksAndArticles

Howdy Stackers!

Testing something new that I hope will become a recurring post theme in Books and Articles.

Firstly, I want to commend @siggy47 on the great work he is doing as steward of the this territory. I think it is really starting to gain some traction and a lot of that has to do with Siggy's proof of work.

Earlier today, in response to Siggy's recent territory newsletter we were discussing stoicism. This reminded me of a quote from "The Lessons of History" by Will and Ariel Durant that I often like to reference. Was hoping to post the quote here and get a discussion going about it.

Here is the quote:

"A nation is born stoic, and dies epicurean. At its cradle (to repeat a thoughtful adage) religion stands, and philosophy accompanies it to the grave. In the beginning of all cultures a strong religious faith conceals and softens the nature of things, and gives men courage to bear pain and hardship patiently; at every step the gods are with them, and will not let them perish, until they do. Even then a firm faith will explain that it was the sins of the people that turned their gods to an avenging wrath; evil does not destroy faith, but strengthens it. If victory comes, if war is forgotten in security and peace, then wealth grows; the life of the body gives way, in the dominant classes, to the life of the senses and the mind; toil and suffering are replaced by pleasure and ease; science weakens faith even while thought and comfort weaken virility and fortitude. At last men begin to doubt the gods; they mourn the tragedy of knowledge, and seek refuge in every passing delight. Achilles is at the beginning, Epicurus at the end. After David comes Job, and after Job, Ecclesiastes"

Durant was very religious so no surprise in the religious undertone here and his implication as to how the secularization of societies make them weak and entitled. Whether you agree or not with his attribution of the weakening of society to the loss of religion I think the idea is correct. It is essentially just elaborate prose describing the strong/weak men meme but I think we can also apply it to sound money (bitcoin) and fiat (the dollar). Societies are built on the hard work and principles of sound money, saving and low time preference but over time choose the ease and high time preference of fiat and to ignore the principles of economic gravity.

What do you think of the quote? How it describes the world? and How it may or may not fit into the Bitcoin ethos?

Thanks for reading and hopefully participating.

Cheers, GR

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636 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 18 Feb

Coming from a country where capitalism rules and people compare their financial achievements with the Joneses, I needed some time to adjust to the (novel for me) Bitcoin ethos encapsulated here. I was intent on making posts and withdrawing as many sats as I could, determined to make this my side hustle.

It was absurd for me to find out that people relish spending their sats here. And to realise that all my posts of BTC’s price action never gained many responses - people were happy doing their thing and just not interested.

So it does seem to me that Bitcoiners value proof of work more than quick pleasures. There are many examples of Stackers who have amassed many sats till far, but instead of taking everything out, they choose to acknowledge the value provided by other stackers and take a longer route in reaching their sats goals. I think this embracing of “I have enough, so I give others” mentality is quite refreshing because it embodies a healthy relationship with the self as well as money.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @Se7enZ 19 Feb

Wonderful quote and post. I've discarded three different comment drafts and it's becoming clear that my perspective is half formed, so I'll toss out some questions:

If society can be seen as participating in a "lifecycle", can it also be accepted that a society, or nation state, or any arbitrary organization constitutes a "life form" by itself?
Is the decay and death of a society "natural"?
Could it be said the relationship of citizens to societies is similar to that of cells in an organism? What does that implication say about the individual's power to affect the whole?
Does the "lifecycle" described in the quote have similarity to a human life? Do human children begin Stoic and die Epicurean?

Weird questions asking for big answers, with no expectations. This is just where my mind went. Thanks for putting this out there.

326 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined 17 Feb

Very timely quote for me. My wife and I were just talking about something similar. We were wondering if there's a natural cycle between religion and scientism.

Our musing was that religion contains a bunch of valuable social and ethical norms that help society cohere. Over time, scientific investigation undermines the foundations of the religion and it recedes, taking those useful norms with it. People replace what religion had provided with all kinds of new ideas that don't contain the lost norms. Reset.

477 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby OP 17 Feb

I think people seeking to replace religion with "new ideas" and "new purposes" is definitely a trend of recent history. I wonder if in the "reset" phase we reach for a lot of the fundamentals of religion but with less of the worship side.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 17 Feb

The saying "Everybody worships." seems to resonate with people. If true, then it really matters what it is that people are worshiping and it's probably good for social cohesion if people are mostly worshiping the same thing.

29 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 17 Feb

We have a lot of people in society that worship fiat.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 17 Feb

This post was a great idea. You nailed it in mentioning the strong/weak men meme. I instinctively believe bitcoin can be applied as an example, but I struggle in articulating a simple explanation beyond my fallback cliche of how the debasement of Roman coinage tracked the decline of the empire, both morally and otherwise.

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby OP 18 Feb

I think the test post went fairly well. Maybe I will try another quote next weekend.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 18 Feb

It went very well. It's a great idea. We'll all benefit if it's a regular thing, since we will learn the quote, probably search the context, and then internalize it through discussion.

215 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 17 Feb

Hoping it is something that catches on and others post quotes like they for discussion.

I just made the connection to that meme today to be honest. I often cite this quote but it is usually just the first two sentences and though I have read the full quote many times I only really connected that meme to it in writing the post.

It's incredible how they tied the first two sentences into the final two sentences.

50 sats \ 5 replies \ @gnilma 18 Feb

I don't think the weakening of society is due to the loss of religion or due to the rise of science. I believe the weakening of society is due to the growing number of weakened individuals who grew weak through comfort and pleasure, aka good times. Allow me to explain...

Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Laws of logic, of mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed thing is a human invention, including the idea that it isn't a human invention. The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination. It's all a ghost, and in antiquity was so recognized as a ghost, the whole blessed world we live in. It's run by ghosts.

Robert M. Pirsig Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Science, like religion, is just another idea. Human's ability to think allows us to come up with different ideas to explain and try to make sense of the many observations we make from this chaotic and ever changing world. There was the idea of the world being ruled by many different gods, god of thunder, god of the sea, god of the under world etc. There was also the idea that there is only one almighty god, who is omnipotent (all powerful), omnipresent (everywhere), omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenevolent (all loving). Science is just the idea that we can explain the behavior of the physical and natural world via observation, experimentation, and testing theories against collected evidence. But like the many religions that existed throughout history, science is also just an idea created by men; or in the words of the great Robert M. Pirsig, a ghost. What makes science special is its built in feedback and self correcting system; that when the existing models or laws are broken, scientists come up with new models and laws to better explain the new observation. For example, with the discovery of Relativity Theory, Newton's laws of motion were found to break near the speed of light and had to be amended to factor in time dilation and relativistic mass increase.

I believe that the idea of science, the idea of deriving laws through observation, experimentation, and evidence instead of deriving laws through an ancient book of text is not the cause of men growing weak. The system that admits to mistakes and self corrects is a virtuous, honorable, and moral system.

I also believe in the 4 turnings theory. That men are hardened and strengthened by challenges, adversity, hardship, aka bad times. That these strong men are capable of creating abundance and excess, aka good times, for future generations. Many individuals growing up in good times are well taken care of, entitled, and weak due to them never having to face adversity. As more individuals grow up weak under good times, it becomes the weakness in society that Durant speak of. They can be religious and believe in god, but still be weak men. Just because you have faith, it does not mean you are strong; and just because you are a man of science, it does not mean you are weak. When there are enough weak men in the society, they will wreak havoc and create bad times. Then the cycle repeats.

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @grayruby OP 18 Feb

I agree with you. I don't think his intent was to say "science" makes societies weak but just noting that as societies advance they turn more towards science and that makes them doubt the religious "purpose" that once drove them to do the hard things. With an easier life and no purpose they just seek instant gratification.

50 sats \ 3 replies \ @gnilma 18 Feb

Turning to science is just individuals adopting new ideas. Them doubting religion is simply them raising questions and analyzing existing ideas through the lens of the new idea.

Religious purpose never drove men to do hard things. Hard things drove them to do hard things. More specifically, wanting to survive under hard things drove men to do hard things. Religious purpose was another ghost created by men to help cope with the harshness of reality. Men can be taught religious purpose and still be weak.

It is our past experiences and the ideas that we adopt that shape us. Those that were torched by fire and flames through the furnace became steel; those that sat around comfortably rusted.

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby OP 18 Feb

"Religious purpose never drove men to do hard things. Hard things drove them to do hard things."

Mostly agree with your statement but I don't know if I agree with this quote. I think that was likely true in the early days of humanity when the primary driver of purpose was merely survival and is likely true now. But there is a long history of humanity where rightly or wrongly almost everything humans did was centered in some element of their faith.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @gnilma 18 Feb

But there is a long history of humanity where rightly or wrongly almost everything humans did was centered in some element of their faith.

Fair point. But their faith or ideas they adopted were only part of the decision making process. You can probably argue that it also cemented their determination to do hard things. But being determined to do something versus being capable of doing something is very different. It is our accumulated knowledge through history and our ability to think and be creative that gives us the capability of doing hard things.

I guess what I'm trying to say is determination matters, but at the same time we must not overlook the importance of knowledge and known how. No matter how determined you are, you are not lifting a big boulder without a lever.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby OP 18 Feb

Agreed