Stoic Book Club: Meditations by Marcus Aurelius #3 - In Carnuntum

861 sats \ 17 comments \ @Se7enZ 26 Feb BooksAndArticles

zaps forwarded to @gd (35%) @siggy47 (15%)

This post is the third in an experimental Stoic Philosophy book club series on Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Participants expressing interest are tagged at the end of the post, let us know if you're new and would like to join and be tagged!

Prior posts for context:

Thanks to @gd and @siggy47 for their participation in the comments yesterday. I'm experimenting by forwarding sats to "members" chimed in from the previous week.

Book 3: In Carnuntum

Summary and Highlights

For me this chapter, moreso than the priors, is a general collection of Marcus' insights as opposed to depicting a process or related format. Maybe I'm just reading from a different state of mind this week. Admittedly, I've dedicated less time to this chapter and am posting a bit late. So I'll just drop some of quotes that were my favorite and a comment or two here and there.

Entries #1-3 impart a sense of urgency. While Marcus leads off reminding that "we need to hurry", not only because Death approaches, but because the body is decaying and one never knows if they will still possess a healthy mind in order to "practice philosophy". Entry 2 is a beautiful and poetic description of Nature vivid imagery like

The furrowed brow of the lion. Specks of foam on a boar's mouth.

However, I noticed quite a contrast of attitude in entry 3, where illnesses, death, unfortunate fates with imagery of fiery apocalypse, "smeared with cowshit" and vermin. He ends the writing with a great quote depicting his sense of identity versus his material body,

One is mind and spirit, the other earth and garbage.

I understand Marcus point and see the wisdom in Marcus reflections on transience and non-identification with the physical, but the argumentative voice wants to emphasize the contrast between this entry and #2. I think there is something more to the mystery of the mind-body complex and suggest that part of the endeavor is in bringing the gap between spirit and earth, mind and garbage as an em-"bodied" human.

In #4 I liked the quote,

Someone like that -- someone who refuses to put off joining the elect -- is a kind of priest, a servant of the gods, in touch with what is within him and what keeps a person undefiled by pleasures, invulnerable to any pain, untouched by arrogance, unaffected by meanness, an athlete in the greatest of all contests -- the struggle not to be overwhelmed by anything that happens.

It's inspirational. It also speaks to the true nature of a "priest" or spiritual man is the conduct of his character, not the outward show of participating in exoteric religious ceremony or ritual. I also like the description of the athlete, as we know the Greek culture valued physical excellence highly as well.

in #6,

It would be wrong for anything to stand between you and attaining goodness -- as a rational being and a citizen.

A powerful sense of duty, and big implications in such a concise statement. Standing up for what is right is often dangerous in our society. Not to pretend these associations are completely accurate or justified, but I'm thinking of Julian Assange, and also, for some reason, of that American military guy who set himself on fire today to protest the war in Israel / Palestine. I guess I'm struck with how following one's conviction to do the right thing can have extreme consequences, or lead to extreme behavior, and in any event, can require a heroic amount of courage.

A bit later, Marcus adds, "Choose what's best. Best is what benefits me." And the emphasis is his, meaning the real Self, the one that is Good and striving for Goodness, as opposed to the little-s selfish one.

In #7, I was struck with,

Never regard something as doing you good if it makes you betray a trust, or lost your sense of shame...

In particular, the thought that shame is a quality, has a purpose and is worth keeping around. I've often felt that shame is limiting in life and try to shed it. But I suppose he means it here as an antidote to pride, so everything in balance...

In #11,

always to define whatever it is we perceive -- to trace its outline -- so we can see what it really is by its substance.

Again, this rings of mindfulness. There is a type of meditation practice where you just name whatever it is that comes into your perception. By doing that continually, the mind gets sharper and sharper and there is more of the ability Marcus is praising to "control your thoughts". There is great power in simple observation.

In #14, "be your own savior while you can."

And #15 was pretty enigmatic for me.

They don't relaize how much is included in stealing, sowing, buying, resting seeing to business (not with the eyes, but another kind of sight).

This one sounds pretty mysterious. The emphasis is Marcus' and it feels almost symbolic. What is the other kind of sight? This would be a great discussion question if anybody has insights to share.

Reflections & Discussion

As I mentioned in the introduction, I don't have as much of a cohesive theme that came out for me through Book #3, so there is less of a general reflection. There are plenty of more great quotes, but I just cherry picked the ones that stuck out to me. If you feel to contribute, drop some of your quotes and what you took from them.

Participants

Thank you everyone who has been reading Meditations, this post and expressed interest in participating. I hope most of you are continuing to read and look forward to hearing your insights instead of just my weekly rambling.

Some errata:

Let me know if you have ideas for how the post format could be improved to stay involved.
Would more or less time between posts encourage you to participate more?
Feel free let me know if you don't want to be on the tag list anymore :)

@siggy47 @cryotosensei @carlosfandango @Bitman @gd @sudocarlos @BitByBit21 @bc52210b20 @Atreus @byzantine @davidw @Roll @grayruby

Please tag anyone I missed or signal interest in the comments!

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387 sats \ 3 replies \ @cryotosensei 26 Feb

Morning! Got engrossed in a (self-inflicted) treadmill of posting n responding to SN notifications - and neglected this. Not today.

I’m reading this copy. The translations are so different that we might as well have been reading different books. I just sent in a reservation to book an e-copy (@Se7enZ’s version) with my national library board. All 41 copies are loaned out!

In any case, I was struck by how Marcus advocated self-independence and encouraged us to not be distracted by others. Some notable bits:

From #4: It’s a good reminder that time spent worrying about what others think of you is time wasted not advancing your own goals.

From #4 again: Notice how “athlete” doesn’t appear in this translation. I rather like the idea of a deity being embedded within each of our beings, though. It exhorts us to aspire to live by a rigorous code of virtues, which will elevate our living. I am reminded of “If” by Rudyard Kipling. He wrote a poem that encouraged his son to live his best. This meditation evokes similar sentiments in me. I like the idea of a warrior, just stoic and fighting the good fight, not emotionally stirred by whatever curveballs life throws his way. He is a solid presence.

From #11: I thought this expanded my thinking. Normally I consider an item in terms of whether it is a need or a want. More evolved beings may consider the merits of an item of clothing in terms of whether it fits seamlessly with the other items in their wardrobe. I guess I will attain Nirvana when I am both conscientious and broad-minded enough to consider an item’s intricate details AND the relation it will have with other things as well as my life in general. Attentive to details plus possessing a big-picture view, so to speak.

My 2 sats’ worth!

162 sats \ 2 replies \ @Se7enZ OP 27 Feb

Great post, Sensei! It's great that you post the pictures and full quotes for context. That really make it easy to get involved with your commentary. And it's really interesting to see the differences between the translations / editions. Seems like they used warrior in place of athlete -- I think I like the warrior idea better also.

Normally I consider an item in terms of whether it is a need or a want.

This is a cool share. I read this great book a few years ago called Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. One of the big takeaways for me was learning the importance of getting in touch with my own needs and wants to be able to communicate more clearly. Turns out that is rather difficult for me. Sometimes I feel like I have a better grasp on the "big picture view" of myself that you mention, but being in touch with the more embodied things of life, like what to eat for lunch, how to spend the day and such are more elusive. So yeah, I agree with you that both are important, essential even.

Thanks for sharing.

77 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 1 Mar

I’m back!

Thanks for the book recommendation. It reminds me of another book, in which the author recommends tailoring one’s message to the preferred intelligence of his interlocutor. For instance, with a person whose dominant intelligence is auditory, I may say, “I hear you, and…”

Communication is really an art.

Back to Meditations

Chose a modern translation and read Book 3 while sipping my afternoon coffee.

Like you, I was struck by #2. I think the idea of noticing the beauty of the odds and ends which are typically rejects and leftovers is quite high-brow because it means that the person is benevolent and observant:

This time round, I paid more attention to his idea of nurturing the divinity within us. It’s paradigm-shifting for me. I mean, we often talk about divine intervention, as if it were an external entity that only existed outside us. But what if we think that we are divine beings ourselves? But I don’t know how to make of this idea because I am not schooled in mediation.

Since I found the concept of divinity novel, I really liked Book 3’s ending.

More later!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Se7enZ OP 2 Mar

I'm admiring your meditative practice of reading Meditations :)

Communication is really an art.

Indeed. Reading that book came with a dawning understanding that actually practicing communication in the way it describes is a heroic effort. It's pretty easy to read and understand the concept, but to really practice it in daily life take so much patience and self awareness. The sort of dedication Marcus is describing all over this book...

This time round, I paid more attention to his idea of nurturing the divinity within us.

Yeah, this is a fascinating topic. In my other posts on the religious history ideas, my interpretation was essentially that the emergence of this idea of divinity existing within humans has been a long, slow and very painful collective investigation. I tend to relate to this idea through a perspective based in meditation because I've immersed myself in that the last few years, but that grounding isn't necessary. Everybody is bringing unique experience and perspective to the collective table, and I'm often inspired, excited and humbled to see that.

314 sats \ 1 reply \ @gd fwd 27 Feb

Great post again, and great discussion from everyone! I'm really enjoying reading everyone's insight.

This week has been one where Marcus' attitude to himself and the world is something I'm leaning on quite a bit— those ebbs-and-flows of life that we sometimes take too seriously, as if life won't come to an abrupt end at any second.

On the topic of 'sight'— I feel like I come back to this often. It's hard to quantify how much of our belief of what is reality, or indeed what is real, outside of our vision. I feel fairly comfortable second guessing my other senses, but sight is something I feel like only ever presents truth to me— why is that?

I like to try a little experiment to give my ears the drivers seat once in a while. Sit on a park bench or somewhere quiet and close your eyes. The next bird you hear, place it in 3D space. You can pinpoint almost exactly where that bird is in 3D space without vision. It makes me wonder how heavily I believe I'm relying on sight when our other senses are filling in a lot of things for us.

What those passages make me think about is the separation between mind and body. The literal space between the physical biological being and the rational mind that inhabits it. Two separate beings feeding information back and forth across dimensions. I feel very acquainted with the senses of my physical self, so much so that using them feels effortless, but what about the mind?

If the mind is something separate, does it have it's own senses? I don't think my body is able to conceptualise the future, it may have some residue from the past but can it see the past? It feels like there more to pull on that thread— most of which I don't feel very capable of synthesising in to words, but a lifetime of journey ahead to explore.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Se7enZ OP 2 Mar

Speaking of ebbs and flows, I've taken my sweet time getting back to this discussion. I'm also really enjoying the increase in authentic participation this week. It feels like a real book club! :)

What those passages make me think about is the separation between mind and body. The literal space between the physical biological being and the rational mind that inhabits it.

Your description here is beautifully poetic and almost mysterious! I can relate. But in reflecting on this over the past week, I'm wondering what is that literal space? It seems so natural that mind and body are separate, but what are they separated by?

If the mind is something separate, does it have it's own senses?

What if what we think of as the mind is actually a sense of it's own? Any what if ideas, or thoughts, are simply objects similar to what we see or touch with the body, but of a different quality or spectrum?

I don't think my body is able to conceptualise the future

What about extreme, embodied desire? Like when my dog salivates because he sees I have the treat bag? Or anticipatory sexual arousal which can have obvious and sometimes inconvenient physical symptoms ;) Not really much to add to your meditations here, but dropping questions which follow from following your musings.

21 sats \ 6 replies \ @siggy47 fwd 26 Feb

I searched the definition of shame. I guess he was speaking more of 1 and 2 than the debilitating emotion I also fight regularly. Accurate translation is difficult, I would think, when dealing with subtleties.

shame

noun 1 A painful emotion caused by the awareness of having done something wrong or foolish. "felt shame for cheating on the exam." 2 Respect for propriety or morality. "Have you no shame?" 3 A pervasive, negative emotional state, usually originating in childhood, marked by chronic self-reproach and a sense of personal failure.

179 sats \ 3 replies \ @freetx 26 Feb

Interestingly Meditations was written in Greek and not Latin like one may assume (the educated wrote in Greek and as a added bonus it probably helped keep in meditations private from prying eyes of household staff).

In Greek, I think the passage is:

Μὴ τιμήσῃς ποτὲ ὡς συμφέρον σεαυτοῦ, ὃ ἀναγκάσει σέ ποτε τὴν πίστιν παραβῆναι, τὴν αἰδῶ ἐγκαταλιπεῖν, μισῆσαί τινα, ὑποπτεῦσαι, καταράσασθαι, ὑποκρίνασθαι, ἐπιθυμῆσαί τινος τοίχων καὶ παραπετασμάτων δεομένου.

Now I don't speak Greek much less Ancient Greek, however running this thru Google Translate yields:

Do not honor anything as self-interest, which forces you to violate your faith, to abandon it, to hate it, to suspect it, to be cursed, to be hypocritical, to desire the walls and curtains of a given place.

So I'm not sure if the word "shame" was used?? Hard to know since I'm copy-pasting ancient greek into google translate (which I probably only modern greek)

146 sats \ 1 reply \ @Se7enZ OP 26 Feb

Fascinating. They emphasized the bi-bilingualism in the introduction to the book, as well. Where did you pick up the Greek passage?

The Google translation is even poetic. I'm assuming a human translator coming to the material with a Stoic perspective in mind used "shame" specifically for a reason, though. It would be interesting to know if anyone else currently reading another translation has it differently.

169 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 26 Feb

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0641%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 fwd 26 Feb

Very glad you posted this. The importance of accurate translation

128 sats \ 1 reply \ @Se7enZ OP 26 Feb

Interesting -- going back to the definition is helpful. My automatic association for the word "shame" doesn't really include much of #2, but it sounds even virtuous in that framing.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 fwd 26 Feb

I also found it a little incongruous that he expressed a sense of urgency, dwelling in the "earth and garbage" rather than calmly remaining in mind and spirit.

177 sats \ 3 replies \ @siggy47 fwd 28 Feb

My wife and I were watching The Holdovers and Paul Giammati handed Meditations to a student. She now wants to read it. She is reading an Amazon review that recommends the Hammond translation as opposed to the Hayes translation. I guess I underestimated how important the translation is.

184 sats \ 2 replies \ @Se7enZ OP 2 Mar

Very cool! Did she end up getting started?

Unfortunately, I didn't put much thought into translation either. I just checked Amazon and saw an ungodly number of reviews for the Hays translation and thought "this must be the one". So here we are.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 2 Mar

Lol at ungodly. I would have made the exact same decision.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Se7enZ OP 2 Mar

Ha! Ungodly was completely unintentional.