10 sats \ 12 replies \ @kristapsk 8 May \ parent \ on: if bitcoin became illegal by law (part two) Personal_Finance
It can't. Monero transactions consume more blockspace and takes more CPU time to verify.
please stop, everyone has different opinions. I think we forget the most important aspect of all, both bitcoin and monero want freedom. One is not against the other. I consider Eth valuable too, like silver. XMR for copper. Both are distinctly different but have different purposes. Can you put a smart contract on bitcoin? Each crypto is different but ultimately have the same goal. Instead of fighting off each other- come up with ideas to push other countries to adopt crypto to get off this sh*t fiat system.
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It's not opinion, it's a fact, Monero is worse at scaling than Bitcoin.
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This is true technically.
It is technically worse in the same way a child would have a harder time trying to physically stop a train versus an adult. One is stronger than the other, but that hardly matters at those scales. Neither is going to succeed in doing that in their current state.
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Agreed, folks should be open minded. It is sad to see some folks that are rather bull -headed about just having a discussion. I'm a pretty hardcore bitcoiner and have studied it pretty well - I therefore have confidence in my opinion and can be open-minded. Folks that fight against an open discussion seem less secure to me.
That being said, @kristapsk may know what he's talking about (I don't think he's being closed minded like some folks in this thread). Otherwise, @Hamstr, do you know if Monero can scale as well or better than Bitcoin?
I think the question of scaling is relevant because IF layer 2 becomes the norm in the future and IF layer 2 can have privacy then that seems like a win for bitcoin. Or, said another way, at that point, what value does Monero have over bitcoin?
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I not entirely 100% sure, but from my understanding, over-time is gets better the more people that use it and transact in it. So it gets cheaper to send transactions, it gets more anonymous they are upgrading from ringCT16 to full dev mode which goes up to 100,000. Its a new development, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with this so don't bite my head if I'm giving you wrong info.
right now, to send a transaction to you is at most $0.01 if high high priority. but often times it less then a penny
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Everything you said is pretty much correct. The RingCT upgrade is called Seraphis btw, which basically makes your transaction potentially part of any transaction on chain. Can't understate how massive an improvement this will be.
There are a lot of other benefits like forward secrecy, better viewkeys, multisig, etc and cleans up many other smaller and larger issues Monero has
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Can Bitcoin scale to 100s millions? billions? No. Not even close. Not even lightning does. Then it is kind of moot. Both would collapse well before this kind of adoption. Neither scales right now (over time they may)
Tech isn't static, efficiency improvements occur, and better protocols can be adopted. Monero has a long history of this.
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Is it your assumption then that Monero won't need any layer 2 tech and that the base layer will be able to scale out well enough? That'd be cool, if so. If it can't, if it requires a layer 2 or 3 to scale then I go back to my argument which is that Bitcoin can get privacy on layer 2 and/or 3 (fediments and ecash, for example). If the vast majority of the world is using Bitcoin layer 2 or 3 and you get privacy with that then how is Monero better?
I'll fully admit that Monero is better than Bitcoin on the base layer in terms of privacy - of course, no shock there. However, neither of them can scale to any large degree on their own (as far as I understand) and both would need layer 2 or 3 tech to scale, right? And again, if privacy can be had on bitcoin layer 2 or 3 then I'm just not sure I see the benefit of Monero in the long term.
In the short-to-medium term perhaps Monero is better. Or, if governments go nutty quickly (before bitcoin layer 2/3 can get enough privacy) then Monero will be the only real option to avoid corruption. So, I'm glad we have Monero for the possibility of short-to-medium term corruption. That being said, my vote (aka my money) is on bitcoin in terms of it's long-term potential and demand. But, I'm glad that Monero exists.
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:) Thank you guys. I appreciate your discussions.
In fact, I'm very happy. This is probably my first time being able to about to talk about Monero without being called a Shitcoiner. This has been healthy. @HardRich I am glad BTC and XMR exist. @yo2xncv0 seems you're more versed with XMR then I am. Thank you both, for your discussions. I feel like the guy on "FamilyFued" or something like that. I wish there was an XMR_Privacy category on SN. Cause who knows how to be anon better then the XMR community?
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Can't anyone start a community? Maybe you or another big Monero person could start it? Though, to be honest, you'd have to be comfortable with a lot of trolls. I'm all for being a bitcoin maxi but some folks do tend to push it too far.
To be fair, there are a lot of coins that are scams so it's fair to be very skeptical and call it out and I think bitcoin maxis are generally a good thing. But some are certainly overboard and ought to be more secure about their positions instead of being so defensive. And, Monero has been around for a long while now so it's pretty clear it's not a scam at this point.
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it cost 100k sats a month and 3mil to keep forever. When I reach that- I may open that category and may HEAVILY moderate it because I know it'll recieve a lot of hate. why? Because like you said, many BTC maxi push it too far.
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Heavily depends on the rate of adoption, protocol improvements, and advances in tech. Maybe crypto will always be a niche thing then it won't need to scale how we think. Who knows? I do know Seraphis starts making layers possible on Monero. I just really don't like how ecash is not self-custodial. That's a major pillar of Bitcoin and we are back to banks. Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was a way to do it without trusting a third party.
Good talk with ArticMine on scaling Monero:
Bitcoin to me is a concept that spawned all these iterations of cryptocurrencies. BTC is just one of these and all these other cryptos are speciations that will live and die. Almost like an organism evolving and finding niches in the market. We probably won't recognize most major cryptos 15 years from now.
I think crypto will diverge into two major camps as time progresses: RegFi (captured, regulated systems - a failure of the original goal) and DarkFi (anti-fragile, underground, and heavy use of cryptography for anonymity and privacy)
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