see here's the thing: my liquid wealth is 100% bitcoin (i don't even own a house or a car), and it's a pretty substantial stack at that.

but i also have some tax sheltered accounts which cannot be liquidated to purchase bitcoin. so what to do with them? leave them in cash to be inflated away? i have to invest that capital somewhere, so i may as well dump it into the ETFs when they become available in my country.

Thinking about this in terms of tribalism isn't super helpful. Individuals' circumstances vary wildly.

As your last question actually hints to anyway:

So are they in yet another "tribe"?

I think the "related posts" say it all

ETF holders are not node runners and therefore are unable to participate in social construct debate on what Bitcoin is. To them, Bitcoin is what their ETF custodian says that it is. So in a blocksize wars scenario, those people are by default on the side of the ETF custodian (if they don't immediately sell) and the ETF custodian is by default on the side of whatever government regulators decide is Bitcoin.

Unlike Bitcoiners, they are not censorship resistant, they are not decentralized, they don't even have the ability to prove they own what they say they own, they can't do cheap cross border transactions, they can't use the lightning network, they can't even withdraw Bitcoin from their custodian, and all in all, they don't own Bitcoin.

What about people who have some Bitcoin and some ETFs? Well, I suppose some of their net worth is censorship resistant, able to participate in social construct debate/blocksize wars, can do cross border payments and use the lightning network whereas another part of their net worth can not.

There are lots of people who are able to buy the ETF's in their retirement accounts, but wouldn't be able to buy actual bitcoin that way. I certainly have no issues with people doing that.

Beyond that, I would hope the ETF's can serve as an on-ramp that gets people more interested in Bitcoin. Anyone who stops at the ETF, though, is not a tribemate of mine.

I was one of those newbs that initially got exposed into Bitcoin via Robinhood. Which basically is like owning a Bitcoin ETF since you cannot withdraw your coins. However, as soon as I saw my fiat net worth increasing quite dramatically, I had to learn what on Earth was happening and look into what this Bitcoin thing actually is. This led me to quickly understand the important concept of 'not your keys, not your bitcoin', and so I sold all that fake btc and bought the real thing. So, as someone who started with buying paper BTC but progressed into hodling the actual asset, I choose to be optimistic for those newly coming into BTC through ETFs, because at least some will without a doubt go through a similar experience to mine, and learn the true significance of this tool beyond it's fiat price.

Those who are in the BTC world don't buy ETFs! Of course there are those who want to diversify their investments, but I can't understand why they would spend money on ETFs instead of buying and actually owning a real asset.

Maybe I'm wrong, a bitcoiner when he has money to spend buys more satoshi. At least that's how I do it.

People don't inform themselves, they don't understand the potential of BTC, they think it's just an asset for speculation or a bubble that has to burst sooner or later. They certainly don't care what's behind BTC, if it can free us from any intermediary and improve our lives.

If they are unable to seize this opportunity then they don't deserve to be part of this world. We don't belong to the same tribe.

I consider them bitcoin holders but not necessarily bitcoiners. You lose many of key features of Bitcoin when you hold it in an etf wrapper. I am not against ETFs they were inevitable and just another layer on the Bitcoin stack. Until we can get getter options for holding Bitcoin in a retirement account they are probably a decent representation of that. They add liquidity to the market and expose it to new investors.

However, I do hope that some of the etf holders will now study and learn why they should convert most of their etf holdings to bitcoin and hold in self custody.

You're always PPP.

Thanks for asking.

Let me view it clearly from the perspective of India. Here, if I buy 1 BTC from an exchange and it turns out profitable in terms of fiat, I need to give away 32.1% of profits as taxes.

But when I buy spot ETFs, I can buy them (upto a limit of $250000) and will be taxed flat 25% on dividends.

Also, if I choose to hold any investment in ETFs for a period of 24 months, it becomes subject to capital gains and will be taxed flat 20%.

So, taxwise and for compliances, people from India are getting more inclined towards ETFs. It's a harsh reality for me.

I'm not buying any ETF thing, not today, not in my life because I don't like any type of middleman for letting me hold onto something that is mine.

TBH, I already knew that ETFs are becoming popular among Indian investors, but it's only after your post that I looked for rules and regulations regarding investing capital in US Stock markets.

So, Thank you so much. A frivolous gift, enjoy a thousand sats as my gratitude.

They are buying price exposure. It's a start. Some fraction of those folks will get curious and buy real bitcoin and withdraw to self custody. Our job is not to look down on these folks, it is to educate them. When you notice one of these people asking the right questions you should feed their curiosity. Guide them to the rabbit hole.

The ETFs are a natural vehicle for orange pilling people. You just need to apply the right strategy. It's safe to assume ETF purchasers are primarily interested in price appreciation. Use this knowledge. The SEC prohibited in-kind redemption for the bitcoin ETFs. So ETF owners are forced to convert into dollars when they sell. This is a taxable event, which is not a coincidence. The Wall Street alliance made sure to change the rules so the gov can get their pound of flesh. Use this fact to drive home the importance of self-custody.

Once they understand the tax benefits of self custody you can start to explain the macro game theory. Speculative attacks on the dollar will continue to ramp up and the government will get more desperate as the dollar continues to depeg from everything and inflate to the stratosphere. The feds will start closing onramps and forcing more and more people into captured vehicles like the ETFs. At first they will justify it with tax collection. Eventually the ETFs will get rugged. Feds will seize the underlying bitcoin and hand out receipts that can be devalued at will. Exactly like they did 100 years ago with EO 6102.

Our job is to blackpill as many ETF owners as possible. Convince them to buy real bitcoin while they still can. Otherwise they'll get caught with their pants down when the tide goes out. How embarrassing!

I dont think owning the etf is wrong. Especially for the people who only have this option. At least they are able to put money where they want.

I look at them as useful liquidity for the bitcoin network, they're pulling supply the market to enrich the broader network allowing the rest of us to do more high value transactions and generate value, they also act as an early warning system, they would be the first to be attacked/rugged