“The way an order expresses itself through any system has to have flaws and mistakes. I’m talking about developing an idea of wholeness or completeness that includes imperfection.” — Vivian Dittmar This & more great stuff in this John Vervake podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCz9XpdofSQ Fountain link: https://www.fountain.fm/episode/uwgAqPPaZsW61XJkcPfr I listened to all 3 episodes of them together... hadn't heard of her before, just picked an episode randomly - which was the latest in the series (the one I linked) and then went ahead and listened to the other ones as well. I found this latest episode to be the most captivating and interesting of the three - I ended up listening to it multiple times actually. Although I will say if you enjoy this one I do definitely recommend to go back and listen to the other 2 episodes with Vivian as well.