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69 sats \ 8 replies \ @zapsammy 17 Oct
credit on one end means debt on the other end. evangelizing credit means promoting debt.
there is no way to "pay back" bitcoin on a long enough time frame, this is bullshit. if one is planning to "pay back" in fiat, that means he is relying on inflation of the monetary unit supply, hence he is betting on the continuous wiping out of people's savings if they do not use bitcoin.
just say NO.
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10 sats \ 7 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
I think you misunderstood a bit - I believe it is more so about liquidity. I am not promoting the idea of debt whatsoever, nor will I ever.
Bitcoin-backed credit cards will let users leverage their Bitcoin without selling it, providing flexibility, not irresponsible debt. This solves the conflicting narratives Bitcoin twitter has:
- NEVER Sell your Bitcoin!
- It is also the future of money.
Someone can use their Bitcoin more effectively while retaining ownership. This also helps avoid the onchain fees in the future when they skyrocket - onchain transactions will be novel. The aim isn’t to inflate debt or diminish savings, but to make Bitcoin spending more accessible without forcing radical behavioral shifts for the average person.
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26 sats \ 6 replies \ @zapsammy 17 Oct
sats must flow in order for sats economy to exist and for the lightning network to become more robust and useful. there is no longer an issue of "too few bitcoin merchants" but an issue of "idiots who refuse to send sats" out of fear of politics or random price action.
the problem can be solved by spending sats within a trusted group of people at first, so that the sats stay within the tribe. teach people to send small amounts at first in order to get comfortable with the network. if/when global emergency strikes, the tribe collectively will be able to afford food, shelter, energy, etc. some tribes are the size of a family unit, and others the size of a whole town.
note: the word economy implies "economizing" resources and time.
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26 sats \ 5 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
Totally agree. Not against this whatsoever.
However, this flow needs to be practical and accessible for the average person, not just Bitcoin enthusiasts within a small, trusted group. One of the main, if not the biggest barrier we face today isn’t just fear of spending sats due to politics or price volatility, it’s the fact that using sats for everyday transactions is still more complicated than swiping a card. It is still a novel event someone will tweet about.
People will adopt what is easy and familiar. For Bitcoin to truly thrive as a global economy, we need to integrate it into everyday life in ways that don’t require people to change their habits as a means to an end for full adoption. Whether this is lightning or some better solution in the future is up to the builders and how well they can sell it.
Our goals may differ, but my end goal is for the average person to use Bitcoin as a bridge to escape fiat. It is a means to an end.
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121 sats \ 4 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
Bitcoin will NEVER work if you try to "integrate" it into existing financial systems.
Bitcoin will ERASE and make obsolete all those systems, changing totally the people's mindset.
Don't try to do the way around because you will break your neck.
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5 sats \ 3 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
Yup
It can't be overnight
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105 sats \ 2 replies \ @zapsammy 17 Oct
for me, the days of tip-toeing around the average person's unwillingness to learn are over.
it's an all-in fight now. if i see people on the fringes trying to opt out of the fiat controls, i will give it to them straight: it's bitcoin or forever slavery, learn hard or die easy.
how much bitcoin knowledge they can cover is up to them and their abilities, but i will no longer tolerate ignorance.
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26 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
Exactly
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21 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b 17 Oct
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18 sats \ 0 replies \ @4rge 17 Oct
Fr
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b 17 Oct
I don't think this is true, but it certainly looks like it's true considering the state of all the products in the space.
Eventually, I think the average person will run their own nodes. At some point telephones were too complicated. At another internet modems were too complicated. People will learn what's valuable to learn if it's worth the cost of the learning. The cost of the learning is very high right now but eventually it won't be.
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153 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
Because of this, I believe that this causes the average person to be overwhelmed with choices. People are overwhelmed with too many choices and gravitate towards easy, frictionless solutions.
Maybe. If it is installed as an application on Desktop PCs, sure. In a perfect world, everyone would want to run a node, but convincing them on why they should instead of using something easy + custodial is a challenge.
The reality is that the average Bitcoiner is onboarding their grandma, parents, or friends to an umbrel, perhaps without understanding why. Even if they are onboarded and set up, now they have the other challenge, which is to use it without making it a novel event.
"Look honey, I sent some Bitcoins!"
Technology adoption is one thing, but the average person has already adopted the financial credit card habitually, so why fix something that isn't (too) broken?
I agree, but my proposal is that with BTC Collateralized credit cards, they won’t have to learn anything new; if they do, it will be very minimal.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 17 Oct
I believe it is the opposite
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
Yeah I could be wrong about that. But most volume is circulated thru exchanges for sure.
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321 sats \ 12 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
TOTAL BULLSHIT
That means to perpetuate the use of fiat, not Bitcoin adoption.
FIAT DELENDA EST
I am tired of all this bullshit pushed by Saylors with "Bitcoin as Collateral" but still using fiat. You are all out of you mind fiat maxis FFS!
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0 sats \ 11 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
How is it bullshit?
How so? What does adoption look like to you at scale with onchain fees? What about lightning infrastructure? Developer adoption? VCs funding these tools? Developer education? Is it so bad if we used fiat as a bridge to onboard millions to Bitcoin?
The end goal is to onboard to people to LN Wallets and such, but until then, this is the next best thing imo. The closest thing we have to this today is people using cash app, but even then, how many people USE the Bitcoin they bought?
Definitely not. This is a very realistic future.
If Bitcoin is the future of money, we have to USE it.
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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
oh yeah? by giving them away to Saylor in exchange for crap fiat ? That is the future in your vision?
FUCK THAT SHIT.
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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
No one said anything about Saylor, it seems you didn't read the article I wrote. You can use BitEscrow to deposit them into a contract.
I have been building it for 3 years with my CTO so that you don't have to use a bank at all. BitEscrow is noncustodial and open source. I encourage you to have an open mind and check it out.
https://www.bitescrow.app/
My Vision is the following:
- Deposit Bitcoin into a contract from any source you want; it's your money. This can be from Coinbase or wherever else.
- Hey THIRDPARTY I have 1 Bitcoin in a non-custodial deposit account, can I get a credit card backed by that? Or a loan in fiat? (anything else you can imagine)
- Let's assume it's a credit card: "sure thing, here you go. This card works at any point of sale, by the way!"
- you are now using the existing rails of fiat to use Bitcoin.
What do you think? I really encourage you to think about the implications of Bitcoin as collateral.
Furthermore, I don't think very highly of Saylor. His lack of contributions to developers is disappointing.
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100 sats \ 8 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
The question is simple:
If I deposit BTC, what you will give me in exchange? Fiat? NO FUCKING WAY!
I do not need any fiat rails! ONLY Bitcoin.
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0 sats \ 7 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
Listen, I get where you’re coming from. Using Bitcoin and relying on fiat rails can feel like a contradiction, especially for hardcore maxis like you.
But let’s be real about the current state of adoption and infrastructure. If the goal is to bring Bitcoin to the masses, we have to acknowledge that most people aren’t ready to completely let go of fiat money, let alone the systems. They’re familiar, ingrained in daily life, and work with existing habits like credit card usage. The idea behind Bitcoin as collateral is to bridge this gap for the average person.
What you’re getting with a Bitcoin-backed credit card isn’t fiat in the way you might think. You’re using Bitcoin as collateral, allowing you to spend against it without selling it or converting it to fiat. The goal isn’t to stay tied to fiat forever, but to use a tool people are already familiar with (credit cards) to drive Bitcoin’s real-world use at scale. It’s modular, scalable, and doesn’t force people into complicated technology right away.
The world isn’t ready for a Bitcoin-only economy yet, but we can’t let that hold us back. Using Bitcoin as collateral is a good way to get started.
Example: Mutiny wallet. An AMAZING wallet. It was perfectly aligned to the ethos of everything Bitcoin. Love the team and product. But it did not get adopted by the average person.
The average person may have heard of Bitcoin, maybe they have some Bitcoin in Coinbase, but they have definitely not heard of the Lightning network. But they already have a credit card.
The goal is to gradually reduce reliance on fiat as Bitcoin becomes central to the financial system.
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300 sats \ 6 replies \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
No is NOT.
You learn, adapt and change to Bitcoin or... die as a fiat slave.
So what I will spend? If you give me another sats, then why I should give them to you in the first place?
I spend what I have. That's it.
I don't have enough... I so not spend, I work hard to earn more.
That's all.
Please stop saying this bullshit "bitcoin as collateral". This will bring only more problems. Who doesn't want to adapt to Bitcoin, so be it. Fuck'em!
It is Bitcoin and that's it. NOTHING ELSE.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
That’s too harsh a leap. They aren’t going to abandon their habits overnight. We can talk all day about ideals, but the fact is, the average person isn’t ready to ditch fiat entirely—yet.
Godspeed.
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1000 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
It’s a great bridge to go from from A to Z with ease :)
Gotta start somewhere.
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300 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 17 Oct
Here example of how we DO NOT NEED ANY "BITCOIN COLLATERAL" bullshit VISA...
We pay directly with Boltcards and LN wallets, P2P, consumer to merchants:
https://darth-coin.github.io/merchants/bitcoin-lightning-payments-irl-en.html
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
This is a great list.
That said I shouldn’t have to search on where I can use Bitcoin, it causes friction.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
@supertestnet what do you think?
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173 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet 18 Oct
I hope someone builds this product because I love people to have options
Unchained had a product like this, but they deposited the fiat directly into your bank account, and they recently shut it down
Hodlhodl still has a product like this, but they give you stablecoins instead of "normal" money, and they don't accept US-based customers
Making a version that works in the USA would give more people access, which is good
That said, I would not use this
I don't want to give someone 2 of my bitcoins to get a fiat card worth 1 of them
How am I supposed to get my bitcoins back? Normally in schemes like this you get your bitcoins back by paying back the fiat over time, plus interest. If bitcoin's price falls too much, they can keep your 2 bitcoins. If you show up on the OFAC list, they can keep your 2 bitcoins. If they get hacked, bye bye bitcoins. If they turn malicious, bye bye bitcoins. If you miss a payment, bye bye bitcoins. If you lose your job, or get sick for a while, that's a real risk.
I would rather find merchants who do accept bitcoin and pay them directly, without a fiat middleman
And don't underestimate Grandma. Your grandma lived during the Vietnam War. You think she doesn't know about hardships? You think she can't handle learning how to type a command on a terminal? She's stronger and more capable than you think.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @000w2 17 Oct
The average person doesn't need bitcoin to use a credit card or debit card. And bitcoiners don't need Visa or MasterCard's permission to use their bitcoin.
Why is everyone acting like using bitcoin for more fiat debt/"money" creation is a good thing?
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Coinsreporter 17 Oct
I don't know how people reach to such a negative conclusion. Adoption tech will become simpler and simpler over the time. It has also been the same. Did anyone imagine in 2010 that we get a 🌩️ ng solution at some point. The same way we'll jump on to some simpler solution for running out own node one day.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Tristan OP 17 Oct
I totally agree. There is a lot to build. Until then, this is a good buffer between the switch from Bitcoin to Fiat. Is this not adoption tech?
The thing is that this statement is for the average Bitcoiner in mind, not the average person. I hope I am wrong and nodes become as common as the iPhone.
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