BTC Tx fees: a deterrent for adoption? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

1 sat \ 11 comments \ @lipinip235 3 Oct 2022 bitcoin

I made a 10K sats transfer today to a system that does not support the Lightning Network. The final Tx amount was about 12500 sats; yes, an appalling 25% Tx fee. Other than taxes, that's the highest percentage I've seen charged on any value system's transactions: stock market, savings account, credit card, etc. I knew Tx fees on traditional BTC chain were high, but this is too much. As an amateur BTC user, I have to say fees that high certainly make me question if BTC isn't dangerously beginning to look like traditional bank systems regarding value earning/distribution. There might be a reason or some justification to fees this high, maybe a BTC-tech savvy user can comment on it. But then again, from the standpoint of an Average Joe, purchasing BTC with hard cash just to see it lose 20% or more value on a given transaction is a no-go. 20% value loss per Tx makes inflation growth look like a joke, unless you're in Turkey. Why aren't BTC-enabled systems adopting the Lightning Network as fast as they can anyway? There are still a lot of systems that just let you transact over the traditional BTC network, with complimentary exorbitant fees. Everybody wins with Lightning.

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10 sats \ 4 replies \ @nymkey 3 Oct 2022

2500 Sats is, as of now, less than a dollar in fiat terms.  No bank,
institution or any other legacy financial group will let you move
any amount for such a low fee.

The fee you paid would be the same were you moving 10 whole
Bitcoin, and that is the magic.  The fact you used the Blockchain
to move only 10k Sats and only cost you 2500 is, in my opinion
a demonstration of Bitcoin's power.  Using the percentage to show
surprise is, to say it mildly, lazy.

Only Bitcoin let you move very small amounts, the information 
you provide in your post just shows you do not understand it yet, 
but it is ok.  It happens to most.

Using the Lightning Network, moving 10k Sats will cost you 1 or 2 Sats
but could even be free.  Try that with any bank right now.

Keep learning.  You will laugh at your own post months from now.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @lipinip235 OP 4 Oct 2022

You know which legacy institution lets me move such low values? The government, with fiat. Where's BTC real advantage over them in this matter? Paying 25% on fees is magic? I think we have different definitions of what magic is. Paying 20% of 10K sats on fiat amounts to about $0.40 over a $2 transaction, if it were "10 whole Bitcoin" one'd be paying $32,200 over a $196,000 amount. Also, stating that using percentages is lazy... Well, I won't put an adjective on that. I don't mean to be rude but I hope someone else contributes to my post with some real, non-patronizing and non-maxi answers.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymkey 4 Oct 2022

Don't worry, just verify the costs of transactions to see where
you are wrong, like this one:

txid: 599accbe2962c68b333792f041517c986f8dfe57d444ad1d52edf6d09270c9f6  

Just 0.08 USD to move 200K USD.  You are welcome.

One more thing, if you dont understand it or like it, do not use it,
unlike fiat currencies that are imposed on us despite their huge flaws, 
Bitcoin is optional.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @lv99_slacker 4 Oct 2022

I've seen posts on Twitter (like from Watcher Guru) about how some institution or someone was able to move millions of dollars worth of bitcoin for either a couple of dollars or under a dollar. I think this has to do with UTXO (unspent transaction) management? Not sure. Still learning the fundamentals of bitcoin. Lol.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nullama 4 Oct 2022

Foreign transaction fees would make this transaction impossible with fiat because the fees would be more than 100% of the amount you want to transfer.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 4 Oct 2022

How much did you read about LN? Start here: https://lightning.how I wrote several guides about LN and how to use it on my substack here. Please read them.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @lipinip235 OP 4 Oct 2022

I believe everyone that answered to my post missed the point of it, but maybe I didn't explain it well. Anyway, yours is the only answer that actually contains useful info, thanks for that. You have some good guides there.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @f321x 4 Oct 2022

That's not bitcoins fault when you can't pay with Lightning. Thats the same as saying Ferraris are bad because they only drive 30 (on gravel roads). Onchain isn't meant for 10k sat transactions.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @lipinip235 OP 4 Oct 2022

"Onchain isn't meant for 10k sat transactions." Interesting point, but regarding adoption, isn't it a contradiction saying BTC is the money of the future when you can't use it for everything and anything alike without having to pay extra? Let's up the amount a little, not 10K but 25K sats: would you feel comfortable paying a 20%+ of a coffee price just to use BTC?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @f321x 4 Oct 2022

I would never pay onchain for such small amounts, and as a coffee shop I wouldn't accept onchain because its unsafe except you wait for confirmations which isn't feasible.

This is why lightning was invented. You can open a channel at home, weekends for ~130 sats at 1sat/vbyte and use the channel forever for cheap and instant payments. Or use a custodial wallet and don't even pay for channel opening/closing if you don't care about custody.

Onchain Bitcoin is for buying cars, and in the future it's probably for huge sums between companys or banks etc... imo Paying coffee onchain was normal in 2015 or so pre lightning idk

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @f321x 4 Oct 2022

We can also see most services accepting Bitcoin switching to Lightning, for those still only accepting onchain I'd just set transaction fees to 1sat/vbyte and wait a bit longer