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Nostr twitter-like clients have a lot of passionate users, its clear, but after a few months of use, I am curious if these are really up to snuff. To be honest, when it comes to decentralization and censorship resistance, at times I feel it is riding on the coattails of Satoshi. But people like to talk about these features, so what gives?
Meme from @corndalorian
Nostr as communication protocol, uses relays for users to send and receive information, which means it has some degree of censorship resilience. I own my keys, so I can take my data to any client as I please. It is also open source and permission-less, meaning anyone with the technical knowledge can build on it.
But is it as decentralized and censorship resistant as the money users are zapping around on it?
Doesn't the network effect, a term used to describe how value increases in proportion to the number of users, imply that users will benefit the most when they use the most populated relays? Is this not inherently centralizing?
If I opt out of a popular relay, and all my followers need to connect to the relays I'm publishing to to read my content (outbox model) - is this much of an improvement from mailing lists, where readers sign-up to receive newsletters in their mailbox?
Besides, am I not effectively censored if new users cannot find my content on the well-maintained and high-traffic relays? It feels like if I don't use these public relays, then I'll never be able to participate fully in the network.
As Vitor Pamplona explained in a blog post :
Remember, relays can see what your Nostr client is requesting and downloading at all times. They can track what you see and see what you like. They can sell that information to the highest bidder, they can delete your content or content that a sponsor asked them to delete (like a negative review for instance) and they can censor you in any way they see fit. Before using any random free relay out there, make sure you trust its operator and you know its terms of service and privacy policies.
Average users should fiddle with setting up their own relays, and still come out feeling they have to trust the operators will not store their data and sell it to the "highest bidder." This comment makes me feel I'm given a choice between an attention farming tech conglomerate or a faceless relay runner, yet the result is the same, which is that they can monitor my usage and sell my data.
So perhaps a certain amount of trust may be necessary for a project of this scope, which might seem a fair trade for being able to own one's own keys, but then should it be regarded as decentralized and censorship resistant if users are left trusting these relay operators?
These are genuine curiosities of mine that I have been hesitant to put to words and share. Truly, I love Nostr, and I realize there are many brilliant people involved in the projects to building on it. I'm just having trouble reconciling if it really is everything it is made out to be, or if I'm just drinking purple coloured kool-aid.
I hope this post is not taken as a vote of non-confidence in Nostr projects; take it merely as the tired ruminations of a fiat junky slave with yet a few shards of hope in humanity.
FR
220 sats \ 0 replies \ @aljaz 21 Nov
the twitter replacement narrative for nostr is more harmful than anything else.
replacement implies that people can anticipate roughly similar functionality and UX. nostr is not a product. its a very simple and occasionally dumb protocol.
for basic protocol options there is decent amount of interoperability among clients, thats why showing lots of twitter-like app experience using the same data works. but it fundamentally changes the way you interact with the world, so you should also change with it
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IMHO too many people jump into the ship thinking that nostr is a "replacement" of twatter. It is not. Is more than twatter because is an open protocol but also could be a trap for those who seek a replacement for twatter.
I mostly use nostr to post memes or daily thoughts. I don't give a shit about my old posts. Nobody will read them anyways after 3 days.
I see users reposting their own shit posted days ago, just repeating over and over same shit. I don't get it.
I see the power of nostr when is about to have a private network, for your company, for your family, for your own group of underground buddies etc. You just have to setup your own relays and start a private chat, sell stuff privately using nostr market or do your own shit, and don¡'t be bother by anybody. THAT is where nostr is really powerful, not in the public smelling of own farts to each others.
Do you want to post a stupid meme in public, fine. But if you really want to do something in private, you still can do it.
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not in the public smelling of own farts to each others.
I appreciate the turn of phrase, Somewhere, perhaps, it got oversold as a twitter replacement, or otherwise this was my own fault for believing it could be.
I see the power of nostr when is about to have a private network, for your company, for your family, for your own group of underground buddies etc.
Seems to be the only way it can stay decentralized. Anyway, its exciting to see where it goes and to learn more about these avenues. Would love to see some Darthcoin educational posts about Nostr.
Nostr wallet connect supports this! I love NWC!
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Ah yes I forgot about NWC, one of the powerful features.
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13 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 20 Nov
I guess "freedom of speech but not freedom of reach" applies to nostr, too.
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Nostr sucks
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I don't agree. But looking forward to sinking my teeth into this thread.
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694 sats \ 8 replies \ @k00b 20 Nov
As you imply, there are two ways to view this:
  1. it's early and things will improve
  2. it's early and things won't improve
Tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of developers are working on nostr, so I suspect many of its shortcomings that require money and developers will be improved. Like it is with bitcoin, the biggest risk to nostr is the network not acknowledging its shortcomings and getting complacent.
With early projects, I judge them based on the actors. Specifically, I judge whether they are:
  1. persistent
  2. truth seeking, and
  3. pursuing the right goal
The current status of a project is usually a reflection of these attributes yet the current status of a project is not sufficient to judge its future - circumstances change, the initial conditions might not be the present conditions. IMO judging a project's future requires measuring these attributes among the current actors the best you can.
With all things, the safest thing is to just say "it's early and interesting" and reserve judgement until you need to act on your measurements.
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Really well articulated.
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getting complacent
Protocols have many strengths, but they experience bystander effects, and as a protocol grows, its bystander effects are reinforced by investments in the status quo.
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Certainly it is early and interesting, as you said. As mentioned, I'm posing questions for the philosophically interested. I don't presume my voice counts for that much, but I figure that those with actual clout - investors or developers - reading, it might be worth the effort to step back and reflect on where the protocol is headed with respect to the perceived values and ideologies associated with it. In the name of truth seeking. I do love Nostr, and I agree with your point about withholding judgement until the rubber hits the road, so to speak. There was, if you can believe it, a more vitriolic version of this post that got heavily pared down to the version you are reading. In truth, I'm in the process of learning to manage my expectations for whats still a wee burgeoning bairn. Hopefully others can relate to this.
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444 sats \ 4 replies \ @k00b 21 Nov
There was, if you can believe it, a more vitriolic version of this post that got heavily pared down to the version you are reading.
I can relate. It can be frustrating only seeing cope and hopium from people standing in the middle of incoming traffic. It's hard to tell if they believe what they're saying because they don't understand, it's some form of preference falsification in the hopes of joining the king's court, or there are other financial/social status conflicts making them (unconsciously even) lie and exaggerate.
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Agreed. None of the above is really ideal and I guess hence the frustration. Perhaps it's hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept of a protocol, especially if they weren't around when the internet was taking off.
As a side note, I didn't want to make this a size comparison between SN and Nostr "twitter" but since @k00b is reading, I'll just say that SN is by far more genuine and stimulating for me than any of the feeds on Nostr "twitter". Also, cf. @ek's recent discussion in meta, I find the rewards a nice incentive for new users. I get the nuance of users gaming it and so on, but I've seen nothing comparable on Nostr (have I missed something?). Mostly seems to be just the goodwill of the good people there, which is pretty admirable actually in its own right.
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777 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b 21 Nov
I appreciate it. IMO it's less about Nostr vs SN and more about the problems Twitter-like platforms and Reddit-like platforms solve.
The best analogy I've come up: Twitter is like having a million friends to your house and giving them each their own iPad. Reddit is like a having a million friends over and there's a single TV and everyone has a remote.
Most people fail to appreciate how different that is and they think Twitter = people + algorithm + content = Reddit = Nostr = SN = any internet application on earth.
I get tons of "why isn't SN on nostr" concern trolling insinuating I'm too lazy/dumb/power hungry/greedy to create another centralized nostr client. It's perhaps too subtle for people that aren't actually concerned to appreciate, but the reality is: Reddit = people + algorithm + content + coordination.
Coordination without moderation/rulers is unsolved and that's what SN is largely trying to accomplish. I think internet scale coordination is THE 2nd killer use case for bitcoin, one that might save us from the Saylorification of Bitcoin (regulated, doomed to centralize SoV), and I'm less interested, perhaps to my deteriment, in what Bitcoin's Most Influential of 2024 want everyone exclusively using/working on.
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it's less about Nostr vs SN
I guess the tempting, although perhaps crude, comparison for me lay in them both being 'social layers' of Bitcoin, putting aside the nuances you've articulated.
internet scale coordination is THE 2nd killer use case for bitcoin
My basic understanding is, as a permission-less global unit of exchange, Bitcoin can and will coordinate all economic activity happening over the internet. I'd be interested in your take on this.
perhaps to my deteriment,
Nah, stick to the vision, mate. To me SN is the 'Town Hall' that Bitcoiners need, I think probably due to the coordination element you're referencing. The community here truly has expanded my consciousness and helped to broaden my understanding since I began taking my first baby steps down the proverbial rabbit hole. Many people here devoted to the truth and educating others, without the ego of Xitter. Though not perfect--as some like to point out more than others, there will always be retards and "ass-milkers" ready to take advantage of a good thing--but truly great.
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100 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b 22 Nov
I guess the tempting, although perhaps crude, comparison for me lay in them both being 'social layers' of Bitcoin, putting aside the nuances you've articulated.
Fair. Actually, I think that's the way most people see it and why some people feel like they have to pick one.
It might be confirmation bias, but I find twitter-like social experiences poorly suited to achieving social consensus on any matter (let alone bitcoin). Social consensus on twitter-like sites seems to mostly be top-down - great for mantras, platitudes, promotions, and commands from high status or status seeking people.
I'd rather bitcoiners go back to the talk forum or delving than another twitter-like platform as the social layer.
To be clear, I like twitter-ish sites but I mostly use them for entertainment, worshiping very specific people, and leads on breaking news.
My basic understanding is, as a permission-less global unit of exchange, Bitcoin can and will coordinate all economic activity happening over the internet.
I'd agree. The main point I'm making is that bitcoin will allow us to coordinate in ways that weren't possible before. I think bitcoin will allow us to solve coordination problems on the internet that we've only solved IRL and solve coordination problems that only exist at the internet's scale.
Purple coloured kool-aid. 👍
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Seems like an end to end encrypted, open source relay - client combo might address the data collection concern.
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It's sucks.
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In a world where data is currency, how can users of Nostr safeguard their privacy without sacrificing the convenience of using popular relays?"
You mean SN is or can be much better a replacement for twitter/X than Nostr?
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