Question: What are the problems with Lightning Again? And Where's Adoption??? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

pull down to refresh

Question: What are the problems with Lightning Again? And Where's Adoption???

3222 sats \ 35 comments \ @028559d218 24 Nov bitcoin

Just looking for answers. I have an out-of-the-box off-the-shelf node I purchased... I use it to run a Bitcoin node, a mempool explorer and a lightning node (LND).

It was easy to set up, pretty easy to use (watching a few BTC Sessions tutorials) and it's been easy to open lightning channels most of the time.

I use Zeus to connect to the node to 'remotely control' the lightning channels... and most of the time the lightning channels have been cheap to open. If I figure 2x the medium-priority fee right now then that's... 1.10$ more or less to open a channel? If I set a a low fee-rate for the channel opening transaction and just wait... I can get really cheap channel-opens.

I even figured out how to coinjoin to 'provide privacy' to the UTXO before I open a channel with it - whether it really matters I'm not sure but I've been able to do it just watching a few tutorials.

In the process I've learned what Atomic Swaps are, what Liquid is (and its drawbacks, compromises) as well as how the whole 'ecosystem' fits together. What the 'practical' ways of spending Bitcoin are (quick and cheap) finally culminating in using Stacker News!

Now I can tip, post, and receive sats quickly and cheaply... just using Zeus and a Lightning Address with no fees. I even have a small home miner I withdraw sats to... just using Lightning and those same sats I often tip to other Stackers - think of it as electricity to 'social capital' just in a roundabout way.

https://blitz-wallet.com/

This past week I watched BTC Sessions's video on the new 'Blitz' Wallet. The "wallet" incorporates liquid, lightning, on-chain, and even fedimints+Cashu in a really seamless easy way. Atomic swaps with liquid and lightning happen seamlessly in the background... and a lightning channel through an LSP is opened 'automatically' once the 'default' balance reaches 500,000 sats (although this can be modified).

It's done automatically 'in the background' and the wallet is fully 'non-custodial' (with the exception of maybe fedimints which are experimental and for small amounts).

I've tried it here on Stacker and it just... works. Like well, really well. Tap the lightning bolt, select how much you want to send for a post scan the QR and... then tap Send. It sends it just goes.

Withdrawing is similar - copy the invoice into the withdraw field, type in the maximum 'withdrawal' fee and click 'withdraw'...

The Wallet does the rest in the background fully non-custodially it's stupid-simple. Logged in, not logged in it just works I can tip posts, post myself easily and quickly.

So what am I missing?

Running a node is more work, opening channels requires more education and research, and there is some time required, like watching Youtube videos to understand how to use this software. However for Bitcoin it's completely, 100% worth it.

And come-on it's not that complicated if an uneducated rube like myself can figure it out.

And to the extent that Blitz uses Liquid, Lightning, and Cashu in the background seamlessly... automatically... and efficiently... why aren't more people using Bitcoin? Bitcoin and all of its Layers.

What the fuck is going on?

Why can't I pay, for example for a coffee, with Bitcoin through lightning today utilizing a Lightning Channel? And to the extent that I want to make a 'larger transaction' (but not large enough to justify on-chain) the Atomic Swap 'fees' between Liquid and Lightning are very economical: much cheaper than Credit Cards. And I can always 'run away' to on-chain Bitcoin which is the whole point of on-chain custody anyway!

So what is going on here?

What are people waiting for? Why doesn't Starbucks take Bitcoin now!? And what are the issues with Lightning again?

I'm watching people order coffee after coffee, overpriced of course, for 5+ Dollars each and yet it's 'too expensive' or too complicated to use a Lightning Channel? Especially when the App makes it so easy, so simple and stupid-seamless?

Bitcoin is just 'better money' so why aren't people using it to pay day-today? If I asked to 'pay with lightning' at Starbucks they would just be confused... and if I asked to 'pay with Bitcoin' they might ask me to leave.

Why isn't everyone using this technology - Bitcoin - or at least trying to? I asked again yesterday an Uber driver 'hey do you have a Lightning Wallet' for a tip.

"Do you have a Lightning Wallet?"

His response: What's That?

What's going on here???

view all related items

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @krispy_donkey 25 Nov

if you are living in a developed economy, you are sort of barking up the wrong tree. people in developed economies only see bitcoin as a speculative investment. this point of view has been reinforced by the media for a long time now, ever since that guy bought those pizzas. the irony, an event that demonstrated bitcoin being used as a medium of exchange turbo charged bitcoin as a store of value and as such a speculative asset. anyway, long story short, the average person in a developed economy knows next to nothing about bitcoin, they have never heard of sats, or Satoshi, and because - up until now - their purchasing power has been eroded relatively slowly, they haven't had either the opportunity or the need to learn about money and how unfair the defacto system is. they do not understand scarcity, value, inflation, how their monetary OS works, nothing at all. According to a podcast I am listening too, the people i have described make up 1/8 people on the planet. so, in this instance, you are so early it is not funny, and you will be waiting for the zoomers to grow up to see lightning used to the degree you are looking for, and I am looking for too.

My understanding is that adoption will be and already is far ahead in developing economies, but even then it seems slower than you'd think given the sheer population numbers. I think once volatility settles down and bitcoin hasn't had a huge draw down for a period of 5 years minimum, adoption will grow more quickly. congrats on everything you've built, it sounds like a PITA! I hope to do something similar in 2025.

101 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

Thank you for the comment.

I am not an engineer (formally) but I work with large electrical and industrial systems (have for years) and that's what attracted me to Bitcoin in the first place. The ability to 'store' through game theory and decentralization 'energy in cyberspace' and then send it in 'sats' and micropayments. Fast and in a way that... game-theoretically lasts a long time and over long distances. It's pretty incredible if you ask me.

And I believe that given the chance and opportunity, Bitcoin today eviscerates all other assets because it is so fundamental and useful.

With regards to what you said... that's the funny thing it was easy to setup? The Umbrel/Start9 is plug-and-play and I never had to use command lines. Is it perfect? No, but it just needs to be better and it is in my opinion.

I hope people slowly wake up and start to question... 'why' everything has gotten so expensive (even in the 'west') these last few years. I read the comments in mainstream newspapers, for example the Wall Street Journal, and there is never a mention of Bitcoin or the problems it solves.

It's just this 'speculative' thing that people bet on... without any real explanation of how it works or why it's different from '****coins.' In fact if feels like there are 2 worlds: One where Bitcoin+Lightning exists and one where it doesn't. Eventually those 2 have to meet and Bitcoin will dominate cyberspace I think.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheMorningStar 25 Nov

"Do you have a Lightning Wallet?"

For India it's the fucking UPI system that government developed for fiat transaction is the culprit.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

What... is the UPI system?

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @freetx 25 Nov

Why can't I pay, for example for a coffee, with Bitcoin through lightning today utilizing a Lightning Channel?

Because people don't want to spend their bitcoin, thus no vendors bother integrating it into POS payment terminals.

Bitcoin is appreciating too fast, therefore it makes no economic sense to "buy a laszlo pizza"

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

It still makes sense to be able to send 1 penny's worth through a lightning channel. If someone doesn't know how... or they're not interested then how can they evaluate Bitcoin's long-term value proposition?

It's like investing in the car, without ever driving one or learning how. Eventually Bitcoin is designed to be spent, even if it's 10 sats at a time.

And the fact that Bitcoin, proof of work, can be sent 10 sats 1 penny at a time is really incredible. No other system can do that.

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @alt 25 Nov

Alternative view, the opportunity cost of spending bitcoin is the same as not holding that bitcoin in the first place. So, any reason to not spend Bitcoin is also a reason to hold Bitcoin.

I want to be able to spend my Bitcoin, because the more I can spend, the less I spend, because I can hold more total Bitcoin and fewer dollars/pounds/euros.

Nobody wants to buy the next "Laszlo pizza", but how many equivalent Laszlo pizzas have you bought by not buying more Bitcoin, purely because you need to hold a fiat balance?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

True. However by 'being able' to spend it... and by being familiar with what it is, and could become, we better appreciate it...

Someone who has not spent it, especially via lightning, cannot value it in the future imo.

1 sat at a time is spending too

with regard to the pizzas... that assumes that the growth in exchange rate/purchasing power is something like... 100000000% which is not realistic. Not at least in many human lifetimes by which none of us today will be here.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 25 Nov

Where is adoption?

https://darth-coin.github.io/merchants/bitcoin-lightning-payments-irl-en.html

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 25 Nov

Short answer: because people are retarded

40 sats \ 3 replies \ @denlillaapan 25 Nov

We too early.

Nobody likes doing hard stuff without what seems like a good reason?

1 sat \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

The internet was 'hard' at first. Cars-automobiles were 'hard' at first. Airplanes were really 'hard' at first.

Eventually, we got over it because of the tremendous benefits. Everyone should be using, or at least trying to use Bitcoin. Not speculating on the price, using.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BeeAye 25 Nov

and yet, the vast majority fail to see it. they are ngmi

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

I don't know if they're just not exposed to it... Or maybe they have heard too much misinformation about it? Or they are too busy chasing (non-existent) ****coin/airtoken gains? Looking for that 1000x in the Crypto Casino?

They are going to lose if they disregard better technology

0 sats \ 7 replies \ @random_ 25 Nov

Some things I think about often...

Bitcoin is disintermediation technology. Lightning reintroduces dependence on intermediaries.

Lightning does not scale in a high fee environment. The risk of a force closure in a high fee environment makes routing small htlcs uneconomical.

Rene Pickhardt recently showed that in 2-party payment channel networks with asymmetric fees, even if we assume a perfect circular economy, that channel depletion is inevitable.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

There is no perfect, trustless technology that has zero chance of failing. It just doesn't exist.

Airplanes have a chance of failing (even if small). Cars have a chance of breaking down. And fiat has a... 100% chance of inflating. In fact, even the best fiat has inflated something like 30% over the past 3-4 years.

I'll take my chances with lightning channels. Some custodial, some not it doesn't matter it's a huge improvement imo.

Just to add to this... I've read through the post you linked to as best as I can and it is extremely technical, theoretical, and based off of data of just the last few years. In addition, the commenter there does not agree with the OP from what I can tell.

Maybe lightning will 'work' large-scale long term, maybe it won't. But imo it is by-far the best ethical, proof-of-work scaling solution for the greatest number of people. ****coins don't even have lightning they just have... little to no usage they are not remotely viable.

When people cannot afford 5$ coffees (burnt if you ask me) and 500$ plane tickets then ok lightning is too expensive but that is not the world we live in.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @random_ 25 Nov

Pure unadulterated copium.

I'll take my chances with lightning channels.

What's your pubkey?

1 sat \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

What is your solution, then, for global non-state money? And I mean that question honestly?

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @random_ 25 Nov

I just think it's important to acknowledge the shortcoming of nascent technology if you want it to improve. Let's not fall into a Nirvana fallacy.

...do you run a node?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @j7hB75 25 Nov

...do you run a node?

Did you even read? OP mentioned they run a node in the third sentence of their post.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @random_ 25 Nov

Obviously not.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

Of course. And yes Bitcoin+Lightning is far from perfect. It just seems to me to be the best pow offering (pow mandatory) of those reasonably available.

I don't give my pubkey out to strangers. Why should I?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @BeeAye 25 Nov

it simply comes down to no one gives a shit or is even aware of this alternative to the existing payment networks. Networks like visa are fast, ubiquitous and stupid enough that even the lowest IQ customer and employee can process a transaction. anyone adopting btc and lightning right now has seen the reason why via education. most wont do that, and even if they see the benefit wont put the effort in to get anywhere near to getting to where your setup/knowledge is

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

If people don't take Bitcoin seriously... they will lose out. In my opinion it's just simply better money. The counter-party risks are smaller... and you don't have to worry about being a hedge fund manager/Bloomberg reader/financial person in order to save.

In addition, with the friction of money and energy the internet is just... better. It's a better internet and no-one needs the counter-party risk of Uncle-Sam.

I believe the regulators and the deniers may be able to 'slow it down', like slowing down the horse and buggy to the automobile... but they cannot stop it.

The incentives are just too great.

0 sats \ 10 replies \ @ca 25 Nov

Full list of problems: https://github.com/davidshares/Lightning-Network

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @ama 25 Nov

That was so sad to watch back then. Now one can almost feel the profound pain they've gone through. :-)

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ca 25 Nov

yeah I don't care about bcashers but the self-custodial experience of LN is still absolutely shitty.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

nope, no it's not

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ca 25 Nov

Have you ever tried developing an app on LN?

Onboarding non technical users is beyond-belief horrible.

Teach your grandma how to manage liquidity channels, before even making or receiving the very first transaction

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 27 Nov

I believe that Blitz Wallet, brand new, fixes this. It handles everything in the background and greatly smooths out the entire process. It does the on-chain/liquid/lightning swaps seamlessly in the background without the user knowing what's going on or needing to.

It also handles cashu/fedimint for micropayments pretty seamlessly.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ca 27 Nov

Some of the issues are unsolvable because of the current on-chain dynamics. but gl to us, I hope so too.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 28 Nov

i'm going to write about this soon. i believe there is a major solution being developed, that's relatively simple, using lightning, liquid and on-chain.

it will make custody much easier while automating things... allowing any organization to run btcpay server even without a lightning node.

https://blog.boltz.exchange/p/launching-the-boltz-btcpay-plugin

reply on another page

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 25 Nov

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 25 Nov

Dude, no. This video is from 6 years ago. 6 And I am using Lightning every day, every single day. It's not perfect but it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

Face it - the big-blockers lost. You lost the war. The hashrate of BCash is down 99% as is the price and adoption rate, down 99%. For all practical purposes it is a dead chain no-one cares about it or uses it.

You lost the blocksize wars get over it. Lightning is Good.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ca 25 Nov

I don't hold or have ever held any BCH.