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Tl;dr, Stackers—gimme your best secure Bitcoin setups advice.

Hi everyone,
With time in Bitcoin you acquire many different wallets, hardware equipment, and mixes of hot and cold (online and offline) wallets.
It quickly spirals out of control, even for the best of us.
So this beautiful Sunday—with partner out of town and nothing urgent on my desk—I got around to checking some of my setups and their backups. I have relied on many different methods over the years (online, offline, multisig with geographically distributed backups, single-sig with memorized backup phrases etc, etc) and as freakin' always they all come with trade-offs. ("There are no solutions, only trade-offs")
My best advice is to ask yourself the primary question: What is my setup trying to achieve?
Secondary, how much spending needs do I have on a regular basis? If you work a stable fiat job and just send to cold storage regularly, you might not need very fancy setups—a single hardware wallet with steel backups in one or two locations might be enough. Or for big enough stacks, perhaps multisigs that you can't even access yourself. (Get drunk and wanna impulse-buy something irresponsibly?!)
Anything more complicated, and I'm not quite sure what's a good setup. Like I mentioned in the Seth for Privacy AMA last month (#779121), there's a half-dozen wallets on my phone, all of which requiring some sort of backup in case I drop it in the ocean—or custodial setups that come with their own sorts of risks. A good number of hardware wallets have passed through my hands, some in use, some new, some leftover from previous setups.
You are your worst enemy The most obvious risk a general pleb faces isn't a $5-(well, $10 now... inflation) wrench attack, or a natural disaster washing away your house or attic our garage... but your own goddamn self. You'll forget your passphrase, forget what the PIN is, forget where you stored your backup, lose the hardware wallet itself ("Honey, did you throw away a small, plastic calculator-looking thing when you cleaned out the basement?!")
For most of us, living in safe, stable environments/countries/cities/villages, it's not the external threat to our stack that matters but our internal error-prone selves.
Two great resources I've found comes to us from Unchained Capital ("Best Practices for Securing the Keys to your Unchained Vault") and Jameson Lopp ("How to Back Up a Seed Phrase").
On the last one, a real @realBitcoinDog quote from 2+ years ago is = "TLDR: you suck at security, so pay for casa (or unchained capital)."
Well, he might very well be right. Here's my major problem from when I used multisigs:
Problem? There are only so many good locations I have access to (home, family members' homes, office etc). I looked at having a safe deposit box at my local bank branch a few months ago—but they'd charge about $100 a year (plus one-offs fees for each visit), and I quickly get greedy: That's a 100k sats right now... and probably more in a few years. eeeehh, gimme the extra sats!

The 3 Levels of Accessibility Practically speaking, I'm going to need 3 things:
  • Lightning wallet balance for easy spending/receiving
  • on-chained balance on a phone or easy-to-travel-with hardware wallet (say a nice BitBox that sticks into any odd device)
  • hardware stash I don't touch (except for emergencies or big purchases)
If the lightning wallet has backups (say, Phoenix) but also a custodial one for cheaps (WoS, Blink etc) that's one backup; plus another one for the on-chained wallet on your phone; plus the one or two for the main savings.
So at a slim minimum you need 3-4 backups, all of which come with seeds (and if passphrases, too, then you're at 8 objects/information to safeguard; with PINs for some hardware wallet that's another couple of pieces of information to remember/keep safe).
OK, cool.
Here are some problems I found myself in earlier this year:
  • having to pay an above-liquidity amount on-chained when I had access to was lightning.
  • needing to pay from a hardware wallet I had at a different physical location (different country).
  • all-eggs-in-one-basket, with both hardware wallets and back-ups distributed in one location only (what if there's a fire?!)
  • forgetting the passphrase to a hot wallet with a few million sats in it (that I fortunately could still spend from), and after trying every goddamn variation of the passphrase I knew was correct, simply giving up and spending it to another hardware wallet.
  • inheritance: wth happens if I die?! Some people know some of the setup, but nobody knows all of them—and most certainly not the PINs or passphrases.
Checking things today, I found that I had duplicated the seedphrase from one of my major stashes in far too many places—some even written down on paper and carelessly left laying around. I also couldn't remember where my Phoenix wallet backup was, so had to make a new one. (I'm sure in a future check I'll find them scattered around various places and be annoyed at my own riskiness...).
TL;DR:
Bitcoin safekeeping is tricky, and you need an appropriate balance between immediate liquidity needs (lightning + on-chained) and a safeguarded stash. Truly safeguarding your bitcoin is HARD-AS-FUCK. Totally get it that people outsource setups to Casa or Unchained.
Gimme all your best tricks or solutions.
  • Any particular advice you found useful?
  • Are we gonna end of having password managers for our various low-importance bitcoin storages?!
  • How do you think about the trade-off between immediate spending needs and long-term storage?
  • How do you save for your kids/partners or other dependents? (Separate out, i.e. even more wallets, or just merge with your own stash?)
20 sats \ 1 reply \ @pajdo 8 Dec
single master seed phrase with BIP-85 for unlimited wallets
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @senf 9 Dec
So many people would benefit from knowing about and using BIP-85 seeds. I don't know why it's not more common.
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Great post! Very useful! Thanks for sharing your experience.
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ge 9 Dec
I could be better about this myself recently been thinking about my current set up and tbh for me it works that's the cool thing about this it depends what you intend to do with the coin appreciated this post
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having to pay an above-liquidity amount on-chained when I had access to was lightning.
read here: #679242
needing to pay from a hardware wallet I had at a different physical location
That's stupid, HWW are ONLY for deposit long term. Always use the 3 levels stash: hold, cache, spend.
all-eggs-in-one-basket, with both hardware wallets and back-ups distributed in one location only
Wrong. Use many backups, for many wallets and many types.
forgetting the passphrase to a hot wallet with a few million sats in it
password managers like Keepass or Bitwarden are just fine for these. I use the password mabagers for several years, but yes with required precautions. People are lazy and do not use them properly. That's the mistake.
To respond to all your other questions, please read here: https://darth-coin.github.io/beginner/be-your-own-bank-en.html
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Thank u
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Thanks for doing this. I really need to geographically distribute the essentials.
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I think everyone who wants to store bitcoin long term goes through these thoughts.
In Bitcoin Safe wallet www.bitcoin-safe.org I recommend 2 ways and shortly give the pros and cons
  • single dog
  • 2 of 3 multisig, for higher value
And Bitcoin Safes wizard guides the user step by step though the process to ensure the hardware signers are setup correctly.
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Look into seed XOR. Its not for everyone but opens up more options for backups.
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Yea bruh collaborative custody multisig like I said. You’re not a n00b
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I total n00b, woof woof
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 8 Dec
You mentioned forgetting the passphrase a couple of times. You should back this up like a seed, just in a different location.
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Maybe Bitcoin is not suitable for immediate spending (in your situation) and could be scrapped/avoided. Instead, all the focus could be put on long-term storage (which is assumed to be of the utmost importance).
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Like so many others, I get laid in BTC now and again and so there's always a balancing act between income//saving//fiat expenses
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That is flipping awesome. I wish I was ridiculously, stupidly good looking and that I also could charge people sats for together time.
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Fuck is thaaat a bad autocorrect
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No, it’s a phenomenal autocorrect.
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there has never been a topic on which DC doesn't have strong, aggressively argued opinions.
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with shitcoiners yes
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remember my words
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Is OK what OP says in the guide. As long you use the 3 levels stash, is up to each of you how to manage the levels.
What I do not like to see is people using only a single level of stash, in a HWW.
Do you want to use multisig as a single user of a wallet? That in my opinion is quite stupid, you complicate your life itself. Multisig is for corporations where more than one user must have access to a large amount of sats.
Complex systems do not means is more secure. It means you lack of knowledge and imagination.
My always advice:
In all these 12+ years I followed this rule and never lost any sat or get robbed.
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Install also on this KeePass password manager (it comes also in Linux Mint as base app), to keep at hand all your Bitcoin information. Save the KeePass database on a secure USB stick, encrypted. You can use Linux disk manager to encrypt your USB. That means every time you open that USB, it will ask you for a password. And every time you need to consult your passwords and accounts etc from that KeePass database you will HAVE to plug it into your PC and open it. Make a copy of it on another USB.
Guess this answers my question: yes, PW managers for this exploding amount of information
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Are also good to generate complex random passwords, login informartion, additional information etc
For example: when I create a new LN node, i do not save only the seed, but also I save the nodeID, some first generated BTC addresses, xpub, channels backup, NWC, LNDhub info etc
You see when you use all these tools you have a lot of info that is good to have it at hand when is needed. because you will need it.
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When it comes down to it, @DarthCoin has thought of everything
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We need to adapt to Bitcoin and not the way around. Bitcoin will change our life forever, in many aspects. And those refusing to adapt to it, will be the losers.
And I will give you a simple example of how you can use your imagination and knowledge, without complicated things and tools:
How about I use https://publicnote.com/ and encrypt a seed inside a seed with the text I sent to my mom in a letter/email that nobody could think about it being the clue of opening a wallet?
Or maybe a small paragraph of one of my guides if you use it in PublicNote it will reveal a wallet seed ? Good luck finding that phrase.
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This site is cool!! You can create a message share the title then they can receive the message and delete the contents!
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Exactly. You can do a lot of cool things with it. It literally encrypt a text message.
Elon will show up on Mars... only to see a DarthCoin guide printed on a local sign.
"He was here too?!"
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Are we gonna end of having password managers for our various low-importance bitcoin storages?!
Never used a password manager in my entire life, hopefully never will!
How do you think about the trade-off between immediate spending needs and long-term storage?
Keeping 100,000 sats on castodial lightning wallets is what I tend to do, the rest sits in HWWs.
How do you save for your kids/partners or other dependents?
YES! For my wonderful, not jet-born daughter!
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For most of us, living in safe, stable environments/countries/cities/villages, it's not the external threat to our stack that matters but our internal error-prone selves.
Great post and great point, it’s very easy to get caught up in solving for external threats when the number one way by far people lose their keys is through their own mistakes.
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