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227 sats \ 5 replies \ @supertestnet 17 Dec \ on: Is ecash private enough for dark markets? privacy
I think one of the most valid critics against bitcoin is about its privacy and it's one that Monero people always cite.
The privacy available on the lightning network is superior to the privacy available on monero.
As just one example, consider receiver privacy. On monero, the sender always knows what address on the blockchain received the money he sent to the recipient; on lightning, this is not true. The recipient's node pubkey does not receive the money, it's only used for communication. The address on the blockchain that received the money is a 2 of 2 multisig that is hidden via the use of short channel identifiers and blinded paths. And the transaction putting it there is an off-chain transaction between the receiver and their channel partner -- the sender does not get to see it. So lightning "receiver privacy" is better, in this respect, than monero.
One argument that I think is good is that dark markets are always transacted with XMR, showing that it's the only private solution out there.
Not all DNMs use monero; some use lightning instead. Two darknet markets that support lightning are Bisq2 and Robosats.
There is also open source DNM software that supports lightning (Squeak Road) but I don't know of any significant DNMs that use it.
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218 sats \ 0 replies \ @aljaz 17 Dec
One of the downsides of LN for DNMs is the always online and interactive nature of LN which brings its own opsec issues
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 17 Dec
So lightning "receiver privacy" is better, in this respect, than monero.
What about the IP address of the receiver? Isn't that gossiped around?
Two darknet markets that support lightning
Are there people who sell weed on Bisq2 or Robosats?
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44 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet 17 Dec
What about the IP address of the receiver? Isn't that gossiped around?
No. The recipient's node is not exposed to the network unless you specifically configure your node to route payments, and even then, you can use tor to hide your IP.
Are there people who sell weed on Bisq2 or Robosats?
I haven't seen any.
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32 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 17 Dec
What about the IP address of the receiver? Isn't that gossiped around?
Mhh ok, I guess you can avoid that by running your node only on Tor.
But still: All arguments about receiver privacy on lightning seem to ignore that it's still much easier to achieve privacy on monero since it is private by default. For example, with monero, you don't need to run a Lightning node to receive payments.
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11 sats \ 0 replies \ @supertestnet 4h
it's still much easier to achieve privacy on monero since it is private by default
I think this leads people to get arrested. The monero users who got arrested in October (link) probably assumed that by merely using monero, they couldn't be tracked. But if you aren't careful in many other respects, you can be.
  • You have to be careful to use tor to communicate with your peers
  • You have to be careful who you peer with
  • You have to be careful to remix your old utxos frequently so they don't stick out
  • You have to be careful not to create a transaction that spends utxos that you received "close together"
Similar considerations apply to lightning. Neither network protects you if you are careless in these other regards. Comments like "monero is untraceable by default" or "if you want privacy, just use monero and you're done" might very easily get people arrested if they believe them and then don't take care of their privacy in other respects.
It's similar with lightning; you can't "just use lightning" if you want decent privacy. But it offers better tools than what you get on monero.
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