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One of the things I love about Thiel's, and Rene Girard's (his mentor), treatment of Christianity is that it doesn't concern itself with the factual, and imo sophomoric, debates or political nature of religious teachings. Thinking and un-triggered atheists should be able to entertain the ideas that Thiel pulls from Christianity. And also, I imagine, be able to appreciate that some of the most surviving ideas, stories, and traditions, contain wisdom about the trajectory, nature, and psyches of humans and groups of humans.
In this discussion, Thiel workshops potential modern sources of armageddon and the antichrist. For the atheist, I recommend imagining that Thiel is using biblical prophecy as a thought experiment where he assumes the bible communicates something true about humanity, or that the bible at least articulates agentic and dramatic metaphors about genuine human fears. It's worth reserving your judgement because I think the thought experiment is fruitful.
Thiel has been studying and sharing his concerns about a decline in human progress, starting in the early 1970s, for awhile. Only recently has he come to a conclusion that satisfies him: we stopped progressing on physical tech because it got so powerful that we became afraid of it, and the most apparent solution for mitigating powerful tech, namely a powerful and effective global government, is so undesirable that it may be worse or bring about Armageddon itself. I'd guess it was our recent AI progress that gave him confidence in this theory; he isn't old enough to have watched us neuter nuclear progress in realtime.
Speaking as a Christian, I am glad that more atheists/agnotics are open to the social value and human insights that can be drawn from religion. I'm very much convinced that part of the decline in western governance and civility has come from a decline in any notion of transcendental value. Everything has been reduced to the material and the empirical.
That being said, I wouldn't call debates about the facuality of religious claims sophomoric. Perhaps many people engage in the debates in a sophomoric way, but the debates are important. A philosophy that is not grounded in truth cannot survive forever (even if it can survive for a very long time.)
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Perhaps many people engage in the debates in a sophomoric way, but the debates are important.
More than fair. I've only encountered sophomoric debates, but I haven't looked for the good ones either.
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Not so much debates, but I'd recommend C.S. Lewis and Tim Keller as good starting points for understanding where Christians are coming from and how they view their own faith in light of the criticisms coming from atheists.
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CS Lewis 100%. The Four Loves is a good entry point.
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i feel like tiktok is akin to the antichrist
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Thiel would probably say that it may be tool of the antichrist. He references some modern theologists and how they predict the antichrist will emerge - it distracts us, gains control over us, then takes our souls.
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Yes, science is a process and tech is a tool. Evil is in the beholder and user of those things.
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30 sats \ 0 replies \ @ken 12 Jan
[Sent from my iPhone]
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I'll have to watch these. I'm not familiar with Theil but it sounds he talks about the Bible in the same way that Jordan Peterson does. He's only interested in how true the lessons are for the sake of the discussion.
I think one of the biggest problems that some atheists have is that because they don't believe in religion, they discount the lessons that these books teach.
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I'm no atheist, although I called myself that once long ago. I suppose I'm agnostic with an intelligent design leaning. I'm culturally Christian and grew up in the fundamentalist Church of Christ. Having said that I find the following insulting and condescending.
Thinking and un-triggered atheists should be able to entertain the ideas that Thiel pulls from Christianity. And also, I imagine, be able to appreciate that some of the most surviving ideas, stories, and traditions, contain wisdom about the trajectory, nature, and psyches of humans and groups of humans.
It seems you feel the need to guide someone's thought process as opposed to just presenting the information. Am I misreading your language? Your intent to influence is strong from my perspective.
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It seems you feel the need to guide someone's thought process as opposed to just presenting the information.
I did feel that need. I didn't mean to insult or condescend and I'm sorry if I did.
I've met many atheists that scoff at anything bible or religious. I just wanted to help them reserve judgment - not patronize them.
I didn't grow up religious myself and I don't actively practice, so that context may help you see my intent. I'm not trying to judge atheists which is what I feel you're accusing me of.
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It didn't come across as intentional judgement, but more of what they might call unconscious bias. I think you mean well. This is just how the language you chose struck me. If you have to tell someone to be open-minded, are you communicating with the right folks?
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 11 Jan
If you have to tell someone to be open-minded, are you communicating with the right folks?
I've met very smart and otherwise open-minded people who've entirely closed themselves off to religion. One friend who works on flying cars is probably who I was holding in my mind when I wrote this - he was raised very religious and resents religion as an adult, so I'd often have to defuse his defenses to discuss things like this with them.
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I get that. People will respond with their trauma responses.
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33 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 11 Jan
I've met many atheists that scoff at anything bible or religious. I just wanted to help them reserve judgment - not patronize them.
THIS
As a Christian that finds value in the knowledge of philosophy of any sort I find it odd how some can be so closed to value in the philosophical aspects of Christianity.
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It seems like a sort of bigotry. Only a fool would claim that Christians haven't been guilty of the same thing but bigotry is a the base level doing harm to one's self. For this reason alone we should seek it out in ourselves and destroy it.
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As I explore my feelings further, you probably detected my seethe in "thinking and un-triggered." I do find people that dismiss religion out of hand upsetting and maybe I shouldn't.
As I said, I haven't had much of a religious arc myself, and was mostly steered far away from it, so perhaps I'm engaging with the ideas and sensitivities more naively than someone more experienced would.
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Thanks for sharing. Girard's work is interesting and I find very relevant today.
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Thanks for pointing this out! I love Uncommon Knowledge and Peter Thiel is interesting to listen to, so this is definitely on my podcast list!
Peter Robinson is an excellent host! I love the old episodes with Friedman and of course all the episodes with Sowell.
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I think I found Uncommon Knowledge via the Sowell interviews. I should probably watch more of his stuff from unfamiliar names - probably lots of thinkers I'm missing out on.
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You should! There are absolutly great once! Bjorn Lomborg Milton Friedman John Stossel Peter Thiel William Buckley Jimmy Lai
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Uncommon Knowledge is really great! Underrated podcast for sure
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lumor 11 Jan
Definitely some of my favorite podcast episodes of late 2024.
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I think he's gatekeeping a bit. The tech he's 'hypothesising' is incredibly advanced and compartmentalized, we definitely didn't stop since WWII, in fact it's probably gotten exponential with physics, genetics, cybernetics etc
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At least he does not outright dismiss Climate Change...even of he questions how to deal with it.
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He is a great thinker ~ his thinking challenges some of my beliefs and values.
While not a Christian many of the values that underpin western civilization are.
Christianity got well and truly co-opted by politics.
And science made it hard to accept Christian authority..
We are left somewhat in a moral vacuum.
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