Has anyone ever been better at basketball than Nikola Jokic? \ stacker news ~Stacker

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Has anyone ever been better at basketball than Nikola Jokic?

755 sats \ 32 comments \ @Undisciplined 5h Stacker_Sports

@grayruby and I wanted to do some Jokic appreciation, since he isn't going to be MVP this year, despite having one of the best seasons in NBA history.

Here's my case for Jokic being the best player in NBA history.

Jokic is averaging 30/13/10 while shooting damn near 50% from 3.

Context

Some reference points to add context to those figures

Shaq never averaged that many points in a single season, despite being considered the most dominant scoring big of all time by many people.
Steph has never shot as high of a percentage from 3, despite being universally recognized as the best shooter of all time.
Dirk never matched any of those four numbers in any season, despite being considered the best stretch-big ever.
Neither Duncan nor Robinson ever averaged that many rebounds.
Neither Jerry West nor Bob Cousy ever averaged so many assists.

Best of the best

Looking at the best seasons ever played, as measured by Win Shares per 48 minutes, Jokic is currently having the second best season ever. Only Kareem's legendary 71-72 season is higher.

The best 20 seasons are accounted for by just 9 players:

5 are from Jokic
4 from Lebron
3 for Kareem
3 for Jordan
1 for Wilt
1 for Steph
1 for Durant
1 for Robinson
1 for SGA

Jokic does winning basketball stuff at a higher rate than anyone but Kareem and he's already done it more often than Kareem, despite still having several years left in his prime.

Scalable Skills

Jokic, like most of those other top players, is an elite scorer. However, what's so special about him is how scalable his skills are.

Being a dominant scorer is one of the least scalable skills: as in, there are steeply diminishing marginal returns to adding elite scorers to NBA rosters (there's only one ball, after all).

Shooting, passing, and rebounding are highly scalable. Shooting ability improves offensive spacing, making life easier for teammates. Passing generates better scoring opportunities for teammates. Rebounding is a team effort.

Because Jokic is so great at the most scalable skills, it's relatively easy to build a great roster around him. Lots of different kinds of players thrive, because he can make up for almost any shortcomings they might have. This is why he's the only NBA Champion who had zero All Star or All Defense teammates.

Conclusion

When we consider the totality of what it means to be good at basketball, it would be hard to argue that someone else has ever been better at it than The Joker.

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50 sats \ 10 replies \ @IamSINGLE 2h

I've only known or listened that there's one and only Jordan.

What's the best 20 season?

30 sats \ 9 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 2h

I'm referring to the 20 best individual single season performances. The point is that Jokic has had 25% of the top 20 seasons ever played. Jordan only had 15% of them.

52 sats \ 8 replies \ @IamSINGLE 2h

Ok. Basketball isn't covered in our media as much to know such comparisons. Jordan is who we listen too much or the only one.

10 sats \ 7 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 1h

I still think Jordan's the best, but I wanted to see if I could make a case for Jokic and it was easier than I expected.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @IamSINGLE 1h

I searched from another metric of Average points per game which is 30.1 for Jordan against Jokic's 9.9.

It's like comparing Sir Donald Bradman to Sachin Tendulkar in Cricket, while both are considered great but Average runs per match for Bradman are +99 while Sachin only scored 53.8 runs per match. Both are considered great though.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 1h

Those aren't the right numbers. Jokic is averaging 30 points per game this season. 9.9 is his assists average.

20 sats \ 4 replies \ @IamSINGLE 1h

You may be correct I don't disagree I just searched it superficially.

Any site where we can compare basketball stats?

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 1h

APG stands for assists per game

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30 sats \ 2 replies \ @gnilma 1h

When he's done playing, he will go down in history as one of the greatest to ever play the game. I just hope the Nuggets front office steps up and give him more help. They can probably squeeze another 1 or 2 more championships out of the Joker if they build a good team around him.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 1h

The Russ Rejuvenation is one of Joker's crowning achievements. Even Lebron couldn't figure that out.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @gnilma 1h

Joker saw something in Russ, and personally went and got Russ. With the way Russ is performing this season, it's great to see.

70 sats \ 14 replies \ @grayruby 5h

I think this is a compelling argument. I have been thinking about this and I think where I land is he is the most productive player ever not the best.

I think dynamism, winning championships, elevating teammates, longevity, star power are all things to be considered when assessing the best player. But it is hard to argue when comparing his prime years to others that anyone has produced more overall at such an efficient rate as Jokic.

80 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 2h

Is Jokic a good defender?

He definitely benefits playing in the current era (LeBron does as well, prime Lebron was 2007 to 2017)

One of Lebron's signature moments is blocking a layup in game 7 of NBA finals 2016.

36 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 2h

He is an above avg defender but not as good as Jordan and some of the other all time greats.

54 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 2h

Yeah, Jokic is a good defender, but not elite. The biggest knock on him is that he's playing the same position that is usually the most impactful defensive position.

130 sats \ 10 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 5h

I haven't really thought this through, but imagine going through all of the best teams ever and swapping their best player for Jokic.

I bet most of them would look better, even though they were designed around a completely different type of player.

28 sats \ 7 replies \ @grayruby 4h

That's tough though because it is really only this recent era of basketball where a big man would be allowed to play the way Jokic plays so it is hard to compare. Would he be able to play this way in a different style of game or would he look even better than he does now as opponents would have no clue what to do against him.

40 sats \ 6 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 4h

There's a decent comparison in Bill Walton, who had similar passing ability and some range as a shooter. Obviously, they're fairly different, but if Walton's body had held up he was on track to be the best player of his era.

The other comp that comes to mind is Wilt. Once he stopped trying to score all the time, he actually started winning more and even led the league in assists one season.

So, pass first, talented scoring centers have been great in past eras. I think they're just very rare.

30 sats \ 5 replies \ @grayruby 4h

I doubt those guys shot many threes or played much on the perimeter.

40 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 3h

No, but there also weren't threes. They both took a decent amount of midrange shots. One of Wilt's favorite shots was almost identical to Dirk's iconic one-legged fadeaway.

Wilt mostly facilitated out of the post to shooters and cutters, but Walton often orchestrated the offense from the top of the key or the elbows. Although, he mostly made sick passes from the block.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @grayruby 3h

Those guys would have definitely taken a few 3s a game if they played in this era. Maybe they would have been better than Joker.

40 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 3h

They might have gotten to something like Brook Lopez levels of shooting, although Wilt was such a bad FT shooter it seems unlikely for him.

Jokic is on such another level, though. He's shooting from three better than Dirk, on higher volume, and he's scoring around the basket more efficiently than prime Shaq. It's really insane.

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138 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 4h

Another hypothetical would be something like: Who would you draft first in an all-time legends league with

teams?

may or may not matter depending on the relative quality at each position.

I think Jokic has a decent case to go first for any value of

, especially for large

where you can't be as sure of who you'll get next.

But I think even though he does so many things well, there's this idea I can't shake of "dominance" at a position. How do I think he would fare going up against prime Shaq, who has a team of other legends backing him up? I'm not so sure. That's why I'm not prepared to say Jokic is the best player of all time with a high degree of confidence.

130 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 4h

Who's Shaq defending, though? Because it sure as shit ain't Joker.

I love this particular thought experiment. Years ago I read a pretty awesome argument that Rodman should be the first pick in a draft like this. It was based around a bunch of analytics that show him being so great at rebounding and defense that once you have Rodman on your team you don't have to worry about how good the rest of your players are at those things.

23 sats \ 2 replies \ @Ge 3h

He is nice really nice..greatest ever is hard to say...sounds like the people who idolize Lebum. He needs to win more rings than Timmy D and Shaq no one catching Bill Russel so he isn't even mentioned lol that and alot hate on his era.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 3h

To be clear, I'm making an argument that no one's ever been better at playing basketball than Jokic is right now.

I agree that he has a long way to go before he can be in the greatest ever conversation.

Bill Russell is super underrated because he wasn't a great scorer, but he was great at basically everything else. Garnett is probably the best recent comp for Russell.

32 sats \ 0 replies \ @Ge 3h

Yeah right now no comparison since dirk rise of the big man now he is fun to watch humble af like him alot and KG was a beast too just Timmy was that man the big fundamental