Bitcoiners have Somehow, Unfortunately, Lost the Plot \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Bitcoiners have Somehow, Unfortunately, Lost the Plot

1938 sats \ 10k boost \ 44 comments \ @028559d218 8 Feb bitcoin

Let's use this hypothetical (#1):

If 'ending the woke' and 'draining the swamp' and 'ending the Fed' + IRS + CIA + FBI etc etc...

Would all be possible, but do-able only through a totalitarian dictatorship...

Would it all be worth it?

Let's also pose this hypothetical (#2):

Let's pretend that we 'ended the IRS' tomorrow as some Bitcoiners would suggest that we do.

Where, exactly would the government get its revenue?

Because it wouldn't be through tariffs. The math doesn't work. https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/05/could-trumps-tariffs-replace-the-income-tax-what-policy-experts-say.html

Oh, oh OK then ... we'll defund the government. Just say 'hey we're not paying bond-holders we have no revenue coming in and... we're not paying.'

Plus "we're not paying for services either" because we (the Government) have no money.

So either the government "prints all the money" causing hyperinflation (like in Weimar, Germany) or Government for all practical purposes ceases to exist...

interest rates spike through the roof overnight.
The country if not the whole world goes into recession.
And Some (if not many of you) lose your jobs overnight (that is if you're still working).

And real defunding, the kind that SOME Bitcoiners want to see, where the US government ceases to exist because

it is evil and terrible and needs to be destroyed
spreads Woke propaganda and never does anything good
and causes all the wars and atrocities through its existence...

Would result in no military, no police, no air traffic controllers, no FDA, no Dept of Energy (which has nukes) no 'Border Control' or ICE, no Social Security no Medicare no NASA and that would be...

GREAT!

Some Bitcoiners believe . Because we ("they"?) can grow their/"our" own food and live off the land. Just like they did in the 19th century.

And use Bitcoin and the internet and satellites and Graphene OS and semiconductors 'sovereignly' just like everyone is ready and prepared to do (because the world hasn't changed in 200 years.)

And if you don't live on a Farm (and "live off the land") then you need groceries/vegetables/daily goods so just use Bitcoin when the dollar collapses at your local supply store! And we all know how ready rural areas, with lots of farmland are, to use Bitcoin the Initial Block Downloads (IBDs) in Nowheresville, Ohio are going to be EEEPIC!!!!

You'll use Bitcoin at the Grocery Store (even though there's no FDA or Dept of Agriculture)
Bitcoin at the gas station (unless you of course drill for your own petrol and refine it in your backyard... or just ride horses.)
and use Bitcoin to pay for electronics and computers and hard drive discs to 'run your own node' (which, eventually needs repairs, maintenance, and more storage.)

Some of you solder or repair your own electronics or repair HDDs in your basement... BUT if you don't (like most people) then you'll EVENTUALLY need to buy or replace parts to keep your node up and running.

And the Nodes at the grocery store, the auto-parts store, the gas station, the electronics company... they'll need to be replaced too or need storage upgrades due to the growing Bitcoin blockchain.

But don't worry, all these businesses will be on a Bitcoin standard just like they are today!!!

Amidst a global economic recession and spike in interest rates.
With a huge disruption of supply chains (especially those involving electronics.)
Plus hyperinflation which will make Dollars lose value rapidly.

So we're good let's distribute The Bitcoin Standard (because nothing has changed in 7 years since it was published?) and I'm sure people will be cracking it open amidst an economic collapse of the Dollar and the effective dissolution of the US Government when it ultra-hard-defaults.

Now that we've discussed the Anarchist Hypothetical where everybody just "adopts Bitcoin" (#2)... and the Hypothetical where the government dissolves (including the IRS/FED/CIA/FBI/SEC BUT requires a dictatorship to make it happen... ) (#1)

Entertain the idea that something else is going on.

I believe we are watching the reliving of the Bolshevik Revolution, the Russian Revolution, in modern times in the United States. There are, on one hand, the counter-revolutionaries and then the revolutionaries.

On one side are the 'traditionalists' and 'institution-ists', the 'empire-supporters' who favor stability, however flawed, the "White Russians" the counter-revolutionaries the traditional monarchy.
And on the other side the Anarchists, who want to 'burn it all down' (See Above) while - of course - supporting their 'dear leader' the "Woke-Ender." The Social Revolutionaries, Anarchists, and Bolsheviks called him Lenin, the modern "Social Revolutionaries" (who fight amongst themselves) call him... well you know he's in the news every day.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution)

By March, Russia had two rival governments. The Provisional Government held state power in military and international affairs, whereas the network of Soviets held more power concerning domestic affairs. Critically, the Soviets held the allegiance of the working class, as well as the growing urban middle class. During this chaotic period, there were frequent mutinies, protests and strikes. Many socialist and other leftist political organizations were competing for influence within the Provisional Government and the Soviets. Notable factions included the Mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries, Anarchists, as well as the Bolsheviks, a far-left party led by Vladimir Lenin.
If achieving a 'more efficient' Gov can only be achieved through a dictatorship, where "one man" alone can fix all the problems... is the Dictatorship worth it? What about if it's only "temporary?"
And if people are so dissatisfied, so desperate in the United States, with illegal immigration, Wokeness, and high prices out of control...

Is Anarchy POSSIBLY the Answer? Shortly followed by everyone Adopting Bitcoin?

Some Bitcoiners have fallen into this trap of supporting One Side of this "American Civil War", just like the Russians had, taking sides with outrageous consequences and absurdities:

Anarchists, Ultra-Billionaires, Trade-Protectionists, and National Populists, Largely United by their Social Information Platform Twitter (now X) Owned and Operated by Elon Musk (who is the Head of the "Department of Government Efficiency")

AND

Some Bitcoiners... who want to "Destroy the Government", De-fund it, in order to "Adopt Bitcoin" through Techno-Anarchy...

Think that they're "On the Same Team".

Because these people, the Social-Media-Inauguration-Billionaires who are more powerful than ever before want to destroy and dis-empower the very same government that they now control so that "you can use Bitcoin" freely and accelerate the transition to a "Bitcoin Standard".

Really?

When did the "Bitcoin Party", the Anarchists, the "Social Revolutionaries" the "Red-Pillers" side with the Billionaires to support the new "Lenin", the Indispensable Man?

Because when Mr. Trump and Elon "win" and achieve all their "Political Objectives" the Billionaires will Adopt Bitcoin, Give up their Political Power and Digital Monopolies, and we will all be Free-er than before...

To Quote Marx:

"Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workers of the world, unite!" Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels: The Communist Manifesto

Replace the word "Communist" with "Bitcoin" and what could possibly go wrong? History never repeats exactly... but it does Rhyme. And in the meantime while you fight for "freedom" on Twitter... please buy the memecoins (Doge & TrumpCoin) OK?

Doesn't anyone see how fucking ridiculous this sounds?

We have gone from This:

To This:

And it is all so sad and predictable.

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168 sats \ 5 replies \ @freetx 8 Feb

'hey we're not paying bond-holders we have no revenue coming in and... we're not paying.'

The will never be a default. Bond holders will get freshly printed dollars.

This is already whats been happening for last 60+ years....old debt is just rolled into newer / bigger debt. There has never been any "debt paid off".

Its not my fault if lenders didn't realize this was what was happening (hint: they all know this is how the game has been working, none of this is a surprise).

Would result in no military, no police, no air traffic controllers, no FDA, no Dept of Energy (which has nukes) no 'Border Control' or ICE, no Social Security no Medicare no NASA and that would be...

So in other words the US would become like it was at its founding? A founding that then permitted enough wealth to be rapidly built that could then fund all the grift you mentioned.

The notion that "no one will sell oil or beef because the Dept of Energy and FDA doesn't exist".... how did we ever manage before 1940?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 8 Feb

We can definitely eliminate USAID, a money laundering vehicle

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8 Feb

The US cannot just 'print up dollars' without some revenue source. Income taxes are a huge % of federal revenues and if you abolish them... Well OK. But either government has to shrink massively (which includes the DoD, Medicare and Social Security which people don't want) OR the deficit has to increase massively ballooning interest rates probably sending the economy into recession. Just 'print the dollars up' and the US turns into Argentina

9 sats \ 2 replies \ @freetx 8 Feb

Just 'print the dollars up' and the US turns into Argentina

Again, we have already been doing this for 60+ years. All exponential curves eventually steer towards infinite increases....and this is just where we currently are in that curve.

I'm suggesting a continuation of the same just at a slightly enhanced rate. In fact, this is the "mainstream solution".

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 20h

China is already conducting a growing proportion of its international trade via channels outside of the USD and US institutional oversight. These transactions are not recorded in the data the IMF and SWIFT report because they are not being transacted upon the IMF/SWIFT/World Bank channels.

China is building its new tertiary economic protocols and infrastructure independent of US hegemony while the US is distracted and divided within and blind to what China is building.

China is reverse engineering the global trade payments banking network via Hong Kong. China has won the trade war and is now gradually introducing monetary hegemony over international trade that logically follows global trade domination.

Without the liquidity, interest payments and seigniorage the US derives from USD hegemony the US government is very swiftly insolvent.

77 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 20h

I agree completely. While the US argues over 'abortion' and 'bathrooms' and 'the culture wars'....

China's rapidly catching up, both technologically and in terms of innovation. DeepSeek is an incredible example of this.

But they are also producing their own phones, chips, electronics, EVs, and also solar panels that are almost as good as those in the US for way, way less cost.

And you know who doesn't even know about it? Americans. Their news sources never even report it. It's all "the culture wars" or "the border" or "movies TV and entertainment..."

The BRICS? Vast majority of Americans never heard of it. And their politicians? Never mention it. Despite how much it's growing and catching up to the G7.

I still believe that, eventually, Bitcoin will be a major tradable global asset that nations use for trade or collateral... despite whatever (or in addition to) whatever the Chinese are cooking up.

1611 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 15h

Impressive shitpost praising statism... but want freedom.

Let me put it even more simple, let's go back to basics:

Seems that people nowadays do not know the meaning of the word freedom, they only want to be "free" but in the same time praise the state and be more governed... LOL

100 sats \ 7 replies \ @Fiatrevelation 21h

Did I just read someone comparing bitcoiners to bolsheviks?

I appreciate the write up, but I think you're staw-manning the case for less government interventionism. Capitalism thrives in an environment with less state controls and technological progress can accelerate.

Any bitcoiner that is anti-capitalist and wants to see world domination as the bolsheviks wanted, may have lost the plot, but I'm afraid I've not been hearing much from such as those. I hope you can connect with more freedom minded bitcoiners soon.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8h

'freedom minded Bitcoiners' - where are those? The mempool literally cleared last week because... no-one was using Bitcoin for actual transactions across 8 billion people. They couldn't fill a single block among 8 billion people because... the bitcoin is held on exchanges or R/Bitcoin people are simping for it to 'go up'

Bitcoiners of late are all for small government... until it effects Bitcoin then they want the government to go "all in"

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Fiatrevelation 8h

'freedom minded Bitcoiners'

Like attracts like.

If you're not getting anything from Kratter, then cut him out. The beauty about the community is the multifariousness of different views/takes/opinions you will find. If you try to paint us with broadstroaks, you will get it wrong, 100% of the time.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 7h

Dude I 'did the thing'. I 'walked the walk'. I traveled to another continent, on my own dime, went to Lugano and spent Bitcoin in the real world. #838975

Over Lightning.

From my own node.

And you know what, it was awesome. It worked just like it was supposed to, instant and cheap.

But you know what? I can barely find anywhere places to spend Bitcoin maybe the occasional VPN but many places on BTCmap no longer take it, or they take it so seldom the employees don't know how to process it.

The community can't wait to post their thoughts on Twitter... but somehow they can't find the time or place to actually use their Bitcoin for goods and services.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Fiatrevelation 7h

No need for antagonism. I was not my intention of accusing you of not having experience. I just meant that if the community is not giving you what you expect of it, then give it a break and try some new things. Life is too short to be spending your time "surrounded" by people that don't live up to your expectations. I understand there are many things you cannot control, but who you follow on x and how you spend your time is something you can. Time is the only resource we spend without knowing the sum total of what we have left. Spend it wisely.

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 7h

Thank you, you are 100% correct. I am not on X, I don't have an account there.

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207 sats \ 5 replies \ @SatsMate 8 Feb

I appreciate this post. I want more to call out the hard truths just like this!

Unfortunately, since January 2024, I have noticed a significant leaning from Bitcoiners to a more statist view. Many of them are only about the number go up, mNAV with MSTR getting nation states to buy.

I think the world that Saylor and Fink live in with Bitcoin is extremely different than the El Zonte lightning network circular economies we have. I see two very distinct camps forming in Bitcoin now:

NGU/Digital Gold/HODL to the end
Digital Freedom, Lightning network Currency to transact, and unit of account

I really don't hear about group one talk about 2 as much, and I do hear group 2 sense a lot of bitcoiners are cozying up to #1.

Sorry for oversimplifying or summarizing it, but ever since the ETFs have come out, I have noticed people are overly fixated on government simping, BlackRock simping and saylor simping... my two sats...

35 sats \ 3 replies \ @Jer 13h

I’m Nostr and now, Stacker News-only, thanks in no small part to the Store of Value Maxis on Reddit. They are an insufferable bunch. P2P digital cash/freedom money advocates are “downvoted” into oblivion since the ETF launch.

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 8h

The ETF launch has been positive for the price... Negative in many ways for education.

Right now R/Bitcoin is all NGU memes, hodl memes, and low effort posts about 'how much they just bought' or 'should I buy' or 'it's going up' or 'it's hitting a million blah blah'

It's really disgusting. There was always going to be some of this, for obvious reasons. But it puts a strain on Bitcoin's utility when it's meme-speculation please-daddy-government-buy exchange stupidity.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 6h

Perfectly said here...

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @SatsMate 9h

Agreed Jer and I think that needs to change!

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

I 100% agree with you.

I would just add... the 'HODL to the end' mentality doesn't make sense. Why? Because if you "never sell"... what good is the Bitcoin?

It would be like throwing your private keys in the Ocean - if you are "never going to sell" (or transact with your Bitcoin) then what good is it to have the private keys anymore? You might as well throw the private keys in the Ocean because that way you "never sell" forever.

"Never sell" or spend your Bitcoin well... then why not just send it to a vanity address or burn your keys? It would be the same thing.

If all the Bitcoin keys all over the world were thrown into the ocean the value of the Bitcoin would be... zero. It would be zero.

And somehow people want this when they advocate for the 'hodl forever' - it doesn't make sense.

I still believe that Bitcoin is there for savings, and to ultimately facilitate better goods and services and more productive people. Bitcoin holds its value, even grows in value through education... and so the goods and services it is exchanged for should do the same. THAT is transactional and THAT is why Bitcoin should be used as 'money', high-powered money but money never-the-less.

Simping for the 'government to buy' or getting too wrapped up in politics is not what attracted me to Bitcoin in the 1st place...

9 sats \ 6 replies \ @SimpleStacker 8 Feb

A very entertaining critique of anarchism. But not all bitcoiners are anarchists, and even if you're correct (Which you are), that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be optimal to cut the government at the margins

44 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8 Feb

Matthew Kratter is a huge Bitcoiner on Youtube and, in my humble opinion, has gone full red-pill pro-twitter pro-trump burn down the government-anarchy.

The government needs reform, no-one disagrees with that. But twitter is a for-profit company and they own (like all social media) all the content on their site and is 100% for-profit.

Furthermore, the billionaires behind Mr Trump that day constitute the Big-Tech Monopolies which is not what Bitcoin stands for. How Bitcoiners just hand-wave this away while supporting the concentration of information... is not healthy.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 8 Feb

Never heard of him. Sounds like just the same old clickbait recipe of "guessing what people wanna hear". Just don't watch the vid - encourages one more soul to simply work for their moneys (and maybe shed some costs like the lambo.)

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 23h

Matthew Kratter has a good channel on YouTube. It's great for beginners or anyone seeking a layperson's explanation of technical details

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

I agree. It's the recent twitter-fi-cation that concerns me.

30 sats \ 1 reply \ @Bell_curve 9 Feb

the problem with OP's thesis is he doesn't understand the check on executive power is the legislative and judicial branches

Unelected federal bureaucrats and agencies are not supposed to check executive branch!

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

I would like to see way more guidance and debate from congress.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @expatriotic 14h

So... Haven't read it all yet because, holy shit, very long. But just an initial thought based on reading The Creature of Jekyll Island

So either the government "prints all the money" causing hyperinflation (like in Weimar, Germany)

There is no money.

The head of the fed 50-60 years ago said, if the US government paid off all it's debt, the base money would disappear. There IS NO MONEY. The taxes collected are a ruse to help obfuscate the fact that the government ALREADY has access to as much money as it desires.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8h

The government spends too much, wastes too much, and can 'print as much as they like'.

That's why "smart people" and "investors" (quotation emphasis added) don't save in fiat it is a scam.

They save in assets - bonds, gold, stocks, real estate... and now Bitcoin. But even Bitcoin itself is a product of energy which can't be said for 99.9% of crypto.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @1183ARC 19h

Why do you keep calling the popular movement of Lenin a dictatorship? Most people supported the Bolsheviks and had a DIRECT say in how their local government was ran and its leadership. most in U.S don't support Trump they just didn't vote or can't vote (felons, young people, or not citizens). WE have an electoral college and super delegates that elect people we dont vote for... we have a corporate REPUBLIC not a worker council democracy as was present in Soviet Russia in Lenin's reign. structure an argument that makes sense with evidence, otherwise you're creating false narratives just like the people you're talking about.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 19h

With all due respect, you're not keeping up with current events. Mr. Trump won, maybe not by a large majority or anything but he won nonetheless.

And the people who support him believe that he basically has the right to do anything.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @1183ARC 19h

Um, yes, he won. I'm simply pointing out the inconsistencies of your argument. He won for a variety of reasons and he mostly won because people didn't vote at all not because he got a bunch of votes.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 23h

There are 3 phases of the Bolshevik revolution:

phase 1: 1917 February revolution which occurred in March (Russia used the outdated Julian calendar)

phase 2: 1917 October revolution which occurred in November

phase 3: civil war, Reds vs Whites, 1917 - 22

Outside of Russia, the first World War was stuck in a stalemate then breakthru after USA sent troops in 1917.

Germany surrendered on Nov 11, 1918

Treaty of Versailles negotiations lasted thru 1920.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @pbl4eagain 8 Feb

this is excellent

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

Thank you so much

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 8 Feb

To your point on the farmer, what kind of money would they accept then?

Nothing is ever so black and white. In a situation that you described the producers would need to learn quickly what kind of money they need to be using. If it's not bitcoin, what is it?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

They would not be able to 'learn' Bitcoin so quickly. Bitcoin takes time, education, and patience not to mention an open mind.

In the event of an economic collapse... people would use daily goods they were familiar with to barter with on some level. I'm not convinced... that under such circumstances people would use any greater percentage of Bitcoin than they are already using right now.

The education isn't there and will take a lot longer. What percentage of people knew about Bitcoin in 2013? And what percentage know about Bitcoin now?

Furthermore, if Bitcoin's education is so advanced and so diffuse, then why is XRP's value > 0? It is a scam after all...

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 8 Feb

It is probably only a small minority of Bitcoiners who have adopted these anti government extremist Libertarian views.

14 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8 Feb

That is not the impression Sir reading Twitter. There are some big 'Bitcoin influencers' who say these exact things. Abolish the CIA, FBI, IRS, judicial system etc etc.

And because they are influencers these things get repeated over and over... these things are said here on Stacker News too and people start to believe them without thinking.

M Kratter's videos promote these same 'fringe' extremist things when it used to be about Bitcoin

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @Jer 12h

The funny thing is: I’ve seen Matthew Kratter and he’d be amongst the first perish in the very world he is promoting.

28 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 8h

Unless he lives on a farm, rides horses, and has a ****ton of guns he would not make it, and 99% of the population wouldn't either.

And even then, survival isn't 'guaranteed' in an end-of-the-world no-government scenario some people want to somehow fantasize about.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 8 Feb

Agree there are some very loud proponents of this absurd Libertarian nonsense.

70 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 23h

Society cannot exist... without some kind of government. Smaller government? More accountable government? Sure.

But there are a lot of things government does every day that don't get covered on Twitter and it can become a big echo-chamber.