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50 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 11 Mar \ parent \ on: Monero territory monero
"Yes, if you use Lightning perfectly - with your own node, after a coinjoin, with wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12, etc. - you can achieve decent privacy. But this requires expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time."
I agree with this completely, the level of study and curiosity... required to get all the moving parts right and manage privacy-risk is considerable. Lots of different technologies and techniques and it takes some 'looking' to find all the resources.
This is going to sound controversial... so bear with me. But I don't think that completely untraceable transactions for everyone for everything everywhere is what makes the world a better place. Transactions that are very private especially if conducted carefully is one thing. Every transaction completely private without exception... it seems to me it keeps the door wide-open for abuse or crime JUST my opinion.
I absolutely do NOT agree with the KYC requirements at most/all exchanges... but I think that's more about slowing Bitcoin's adoption as money threatening the dollar or Euro, rather than how or if the governments care how you spend. For any of this stuff to grow mainstream, we need tax reform on daily purchases and at that point Bitcoin is stronger money and capital and more private if used carefully... although it's not perfectly private.
Our legacy financial transactions are transparent to government if they look/get a search warrant for example and they are transparent to 3rd parties anyway. Bitcoin is an improvement already.
There is no way Lightning could handle that many BTC all at once. That's like 1.5 Billion? We would need way more users, liquidity and education about Lightning to get that big. I'm not sure that expectation is reasonable yet... considering the relatively few number of people who have even used Lightning.
As far as 'perfect privacy'... correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to run a Monero node anyway to be private?
Every transaction completely private without exception... it seems to me it keeps the door wide-open for abuse or crime JUST my opinion.
More importantly, it defeats the purpose of a globally distributed, auditable ledger. For base layer money we don't want XMR level of "privacy". For the kind of spending XMR people are doing, they should be on layer 2's like Lightning anyway.
Another point @expatriotic seems to be missing is future development of LN. In a few years, things like BOLT12 will likely be so ubiquitous that no one has to have "expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time." Lightning will just be that private and easy to use. Don't go off and create your own blockchain, ffs! Use and build better layer 2's instead.
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Monero communities talk about the 'upgrades' to Monero. How 'lightning' will be built on Monero etc etc and will be better...
From what I can tell those things are no where near existing today. Bolt 12 is already in use, albeit with a few wallets. CLN supports it as does Ocean for payouts and Lightning is already widespread on Stacker News. This is in addition to wrapped invoices for LND?
'Lightning on Monero' from what I can tell isn't even developmental, it doesn't exist at all. And the coming hardfork for privacy could be years away.
If all these merchants and small busineses started using monero and all of a sudden there 'was a hardfork' i think it would greatly upset them. They would be confused by the changes... and they would have 'to upgrade' to stay in consensus and I don't see that as reasonable. Things need to be predictable and reasonably polished for businesses to accept them.... privacy notwithstanding.
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