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4567 sats \ 68 comments \ @expatriotic 6 Feb monero

I've opened a ~monero territory.

I kept wanting to post things about or tangential to monero and didn't know where to shove them.

Obviously ~bitcoin isn't the right place. And ~cryptocurrency didn't feel right, since for me, as a bitcoiner, monero is in a unique position. It doesn't seem to fit under the larger basket of cryptocurrencies. Many of which are scams/self-enrichment schemes. Ahem, XRP. Or just poorly implemented and pre-mined. Ahem, ETH.

I don't know a lot about monero actually, but I use it and like it and think it has a place in a bitcoiners arsenal in resisting government infringements and resisting pervasive privacy shit-holes like the chain anal companies. Even Coinbase has their own proprietary chain anal. It's disgusting. They don't want us to have privacy. And many people play right into their hands by handing over their ID card and picture of their face to get bitcoins when you can get it anonymously. But I digress.

Use the territory, or don't.

But if you do, then welcome.

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24 sats \ 20 replies \ @john_doe 6 Feb

I remember a discussion on Stacker News with @supertestnet where he argued that privacy on Monero is not at all obvious, and that on Lightning you can get equivalent privacy. One of his examples against Monero and its supposed privacy was this news: https://cointelegraph.com/news/monero-transactions-japanese-authorities-arrest-18-scammers

So my question: Given we have privacy tools on Bitcoin and particularly on the Lightning network, and given the discussion mentioned above, what are your use-cases for Monero or your reasons to favor Monero?

To be honest I am not at all qualified to discuss about Monero or privacy on Lightning, as I don't know enough about it, so I will stay neutral.

130 sats \ 16 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

That's a great question!

I would say a few things.

Number one, sender privacy with monero does have issues since you're hiding within only 16 people and someone with enough data can begin to eliminate some of these decoys to find you. This is being solved with an update to monero that increases the number of decoys from 15 to EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION MONERO HAS EVER DONE. It's a huge deal.

Number two, yes lightning has pretty good privacy ~~quarantees~~ possibilites if you use it right. Unfortunately not enough of these things (bolt 12 invoices, proxy node in invoice creation for receivers for bolt 11, trampoline, blinded routes, MPP) are defaults making it harder for the user to KNOW they're getting the privacy they want unless they dig in and research and implement and use it in the right way. Not to mention SO MANY just resort to using a custodian for lightning due to it's absolute SHIT UX.

Number three, the use case for monero is several fold. It's relatively simple to use since most of the privacy is base layer privacy and privacy by default which is HUGE. Opt in privacy IS NOT privacy IMO. Not to mention it's accepted by a lot of vendors on the web since the monero sent to the receiver has excellent fungibilty. Something that onchain bitcoin just simply DOES NOT HAVE. All bitcoins DO NOT resemble all other bitcoins... which is really a shame. And not everyone accepts lightning. So for sure, if given the option by a vendor to pay in onchain bitcoin or monero, opt for bitcoin (or use a proxy like boltz.exchange/swap if you're against using monero for some reason). OH! and monero txs are cheap. That's something else going for it. Whereas large lightning txs start to cost you. And purchasing inbound liquidity will cost you. And FCs will cost you. Lightning costs tend to add up when you do it in a self-custodial way.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 10 Mar

Just wanted to say... that I appreciate the enthusiasm in this sub-forum. And I understand that some people use Monero and like it...

However I sincerely disagree here with the points you just made. I don't think these points are the answer at all and I believe that when used intelligently, LN in combination with Bitcoin is far more private, plus provides far far greater long-term value.

0 sats \ 14 replies \ @john_doe 7 Feb

Regarding the absolute "SHIT UX" I don't really agree, it is still not 100% good for everything, but it works very well for all use cases I had where I buy something. I use Phoenix to buy things (drinks recently) so this may explain my divergence of opinion with you. If you use Blixt, I agree the UX is not great but this is for people who want to dive deeper into LN in my opinion. Try Phoenix only for a (far) better UX. About "Something that onchain bitcoin just simply DOES NOT HAVE. All bitcoins DO NOT resemble all other bitcoins", however I would totally disagree. Do you refer to exchanges which would for example refuse bitcoins coming from terrorists? If this is the case, this is not a fungibility issue but an issue with the exchange. If you have bitcoins supposedly from terrorists I am ok to buy some from you to show you it is fungible.

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Try Phoenix only for a (far) better UX.

Yes, Phoenix has decent UX. Phoenix is a bit of an outlier... And it has privacy tradeoffs... So not really a great rebuttal.

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @atori_0xbdc3ab4e 7 Feb freebie

ACINQ, the company behind Phoenix, knows almost everything you do with that wallet. It's privacy cannot be compared to monero.

35 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 8 Feb

and here's the proof: #866536

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @john_doe 8 Feb

So bottom line, privacy as a sender or recipient are getting better on Phoenix, and the only drawback is when 2 people using Phoenix send sats to each other, Acinq knows it. In my case I don't care as when I buy or receive something it has nothing to do with Acinq. So I am or will benefit of better privacy than Monero with Bolt12. As far as I know, an external observer can see the recipient and sender of transactions on Monero.

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21 sats \ 7 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

If you have bitcoins supposedly from terrorists I am ok to buy some from you to show you it is fungible.

That's not the point though. The point regarding fungibility is NOT whether you CAN get someone to accept it. It is regarding the traceability of bitcoins. That yes, I CAN see it's history. I don't use exchanges either. And I mine bitcoins... So it's not an issue for me. The point I'm making is that monero is different in character. Even IF you had gotten it from an exchange, or terrorist, none of that would be clear to someone observing the chain.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @john_doe 7 Feb

If on-chain, you feel traceability is an issue for your utxos, then use coinjoins. From my perspective at the protocol level it is fungible. A value in can later be converted as a value out. When people play with Bitcoin to search for "rare" coins, there are just adding new rules which are not on Bitcoin but exist in their world. Similarly even if banknotes have identifiers and hence can be traced this doesn't undermine it's fungibility, since in the real world nobody care in most cases. Fungibility issues may be raised among Monero people, but IMHO it is a weak argument. As a criticism UX of Lightning is more convincing (still LN UX gradually improves over time).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 10 Mar

I agree with this.

reply on another page

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Paying for fungibility via coinjoining which Samourai Wallet devs have literally been indicted for by the US DoJ seems silly when monero has this by default... And in a high miner fee environment it's even worse.

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30 sats \ 2 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Regarding the article. I'm not an expert (nor a criminal). I would just say, the criminals probably could have mitigated some of this. Also I'd probably say that the authorities would have tracked them down 10000x faster if they'd been using bitcoins instead.

18 sats \ 1 reply \ @john_doe 7 Feb

Fair enough. The government agency didn't want to disclose how they tracked them anyway if I remember correctly. For bitcoins though, I think it is still to be proven, I don't think there is any known case with Wasabi or Samurai where the police could track individuals.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @atori_0xbdc3ab4e 7 Feb freebie

Several people have been traced through a Wasabi mix, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alcLdBsoDDg

15 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 6 Feb

Good, now I can just mute the entire territory and forget that ever existed.

35 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 6 Feb

The good thing of SN, mute territories or individuals like you

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 6 Feb

Whatever happened to that fluffy pony guy? Is he still in jail?

35 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 6 Feb

I've never used monero and don't plan to, but I think diversity can be good for SN. Congratulations on the territory, time will tell if it was worth spending 50k precious sats! 🤠

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

We'll see! thanks for making the traipse into my neck of the woods friend

121 sats \ 17 replies \ @fiatbad 6 Feb

Digital scarcity becomes worthless if we allow ourselves to value anything outside of the 21 Million Sats in Bitcoin. By adding Monero, you just devalue yourself.

That said, I can respect people who believe a different digital scarcity is "better" than Bitcoin. For example, B-Cashers who own zero BTC. This group makes more sense than someone owning BTC alongside XMR.

There are tradeoffs to everything. BTC makes tradeoffs in order to be the best at what it does. This means we have to live with some negatives.... we should NOT go off and "have-our-cake-and-eat-it-to". You find a way to make Bitcoin work for you.

Don't own two different digital-scarcity tokens, and don't support others who do either. Pick one, and die on that hill. If you want to pick XMR, fine. I respect that choice. But if you own BTC "just in case" also, then you're being disingenuous and lack virtue.

100 sats \ 7 replies \ @anon 8 Feb

Or you realize:

No one is omniscient, so want to hedge your bets
One is better than the other for privately transacting and cheaper for that (nothing to do with SoV narrative)

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @028559d218 10 Mar

People forget that 'privacy' is the sum of both on-chain and off-chain privacy.

Can't have one without the other, and real meat-space flesh-and-blood privacy is at-least as important as on-chain and equally as multi-faceted.

And in addition to that, the privacy of the overall electronics really matters too, because the 'base' internet wasn't built with privacy in mind neither cell-phones.

I have yet, really seen any use-case or set of circumstances where Monero shines taking into account privacy in the 'real-world' involving real purchases and transactions. There is so much more to privacy that just whether it appears in a 'block-explorer' and the anonymity set (tiny for monero) is really crucial.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @expatriotic OP 19h

Regarding your "privacy is the sum of both on-chain and off-chain privacy" comment - you're actually making the case for Monero here. Bitcoin's transparent ledger means your privacy depends entirely on perfect off-chain practices. One mistake and your entire financial history is exposed forever.

Real-world use cases for Monero are abundant - it's literally replacing Bitcoin on darknet markets because Bitcoin's traceability has led to arrests. This isn't theoretical - the FBI, Europol and other agencies have successfully traced Bitcoin transactions while failing to trace Monero.

Your point about "meat-space privacy" with cameras everywhere misses something crucial: financial surveillance isn't just about physical spaces. When you use Bitcoin, you broadcast your entire financial history to anyone who cares to look. Your balance, spending habits, and financial connections become public knowledge.

The "anonymity set" in Monero isn't "tiny" - it grows with every transaction through ring signatures, stealth addresses, and RingCT. These features work together to ensure that no one can determine who sent what to whom or how much was sent.

The fact that government agencies have put bounties on breaking Monero's privacy while successfully tracing Bitcoin transactions should tell you everything you need to know about which one actually works for privacy.

50 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 19h

One mistake and your entire financial history is exposed forever.

I... don't really agree with that. If you have 'one Bitcoin' today and pay with it for a small item (a stick of gum or a cup of coffee for example) then sure yes I guess you are revealing your financial history in the process. The 'change' amount etc etc + on-chain history.

But Bitcoin isn't designed to be used that way. Otherwise every transaction can and will be traced to every other transaction, potentially for a set of users.

Base layer Bitcoin really isn't practical for small transactions, or even day-to-day transactions because it takes several 'blocks' to get enough confirmations, which is time consuming and the fees while low now will most likely rise significantly as utilization and education increases.

How i envision using Bitcoin (and how I've used it in person) is almost entirely through Lightning. Open the Lightning channel (preferably after a coinjoin) using a 'node on a phone' and go spend. Sending privacy on Lightning is very good... and with tools like wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12 so is the receiver privacy if used intelligently.

That way the fees are much, much less than 'on-chain' the transactions are instantaneous, and the privacy is much improved there is no 'blockchain' of Lightning transactions at all... maybe the opening and closing transactions but after that?

I made this post for a trip-report after a visit to Lugano, Switzerland spending Bitcoin-Lightning wherever I could... and it worked great. I used my own node and channels I opened and it did everything it was supposed to. I wanted to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke... and that lightning 'actually worked' in the real world.

#838975

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @expatriotic OP 18h

Your comment misses the fundamental issue with Lightning's privacy model.

Yes, if you use Lightning perfectly - with your own node, after a coinjoin, with wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12, etc. - you can achieve decent privacy. But this requires expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time.

The problem is that Lightning's privacy is bolted on as an afterthought, not built into the protocol. Your opening and closing transactions are still permanently recorded on Bitcoin's transparent ledger, creating immutable fingerprints that link to your financial history.

Lightning Network's total capacity is only ~5,000 BTC - that's just 0.002% of Bitcoin's total supply. This makes it completely inadequate for large-scale private transactions. For context, the Lazarus hack alone was ~15,000 BTC worth - the entire Lightning Network couldn't handle even a third of that.

You're right that base layer Bitcoin isn't practical for small transactions - that's why Lightning exists. But this creates a multi-layered privacy approach where you must maintain perfect operational security at every layer or risk complete exposure.

With Monero, privacy isn't optional or dependent on perfect user behavior - it's mandatory at the protocol level. One transaction, one set of privacy guarantees, regardless of user expertise.

Your anecdote about using Lightning in Lugano is great, but it doesn't address the fundamental privacy weakness - that Lightning channels are anchored to a transparent blockchain. And many people open these channels with KYC bitcoin using services like Strike or Cashapp...

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54 sats \ 0 replies \ @mister_monster 8 Feb

I don't really see it. I understand what you mean, it just doesn't hold water to me.

Is the Dollar less valuable (ignoring that it is ultimately worth 0 for a minute) because people use Yen in Japan? Yes, actually, if people used Dollars in Japan it would be more expensive because of demand. But that doesn't mean it is undervalued. That means organic demand sets it's price (to the degree that can be true with a fiat currency). A money that has artificially created demand is overvalued.

And that's all it is, price discovery. Demand for Bitcoin will be what it will be, demand for whatever else will be what it will be. Refusing to use things that are useful in your life reduces value to you, and hoping that people choose to do that is a futile endeavor. It's not having your cake and eating it too, its using what's available to you as needed. We should do that. I shouldn't force myself to live with negatives I don't like. It's my capital. There's nothing virtuous about hamstringing yourself.

15 sats \ 2 replies \ @rafael_xmr 7 Feb

That's a good position I've never heard before and it does make sense, I own both but that's to provide liquidity, I can create offers on robosats or retoswap and generate yield while the market participants need on-ramps and off-ramps to move from one asset to the other

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 10 Mar

It's difficult enough to find places to spend Bitcoin, vendors and merchants who know enough about it to accept it and for good reason.

Adding Monero into the mix... honestly it just feels like a lost-cause. As far as i can tell, the liquidity is poor, name-brand is anemic (people have never heard of it, education about Bitcoin is hard enough already) and at the end of the day anonymity-set in the "real world" matters a tremendous amount.

If you're that "one" person "paying with Monero" at the gas station (or other location where you want privacy?) how on Earth is it going to be private? In the real world there are cameras everywhere.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 19h

Your "lost cause" argument misses what's actually happening in the market. Monero is actively replacing Bitcoin in environments where privacy matters - not because of marketing, but because of necessity.

The "cameras everywhere" point fundamentally misunderstands financial privacy. Physical surveillance is one thing, but Bitcoin exposes your entire financial history to anyone with an internet connection. With Monero, your transaction history remains private regardless of physical surveillance.

Monero's anonymity set isn't static - it compounds over time as your outputs appear as decoys in other transactions. Each ring signature increases the statistical uncertainty about which outputs are being spent.

This isn't theoretical - government agencies have placed bounties specifically on breaking Monero's privacy while successfully tracing Bitcoin. The IRS paid $625,000 to crack Monero and failed, while Bitcoin users continue to be prosecuted through chain analysis.

The "nobody's heard of it" argument actually highlights Monero's value proposition. Not everyone wants their financial activities broadcast publicly. As regulatory pressure increases on transparent blockchains, Monero's true fungibility becomes increasingly essential.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @atori_0xbdc3ab4e 7 Feb freebie

Would you ever use cash to buy something privately despite the fact that the dollar is going to zero against bitcoin? Of course you would. Use monero is no different except it's digital cash. You can hold bitcoin and spend monero.

70 sats \ 1 reply \ @BlokchainB 6 Feb

Congrats on founding the territory and opening up the battle of ideas. I don’t use monero and have no plans to but it will be interesting to see what topics are discussed here.

19 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Thanks a ton

45 sats \ 1 reply \ @Longtermwizard 6 Feb

Yes yes yesss, it gets interesting

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

:D I hope so.

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @ryu 7 Feb

Fucking ballsy creating this here. Enjoy the sats, and may this territory cultivate actual conversation.

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Thanks Ryu. I just had to mute one or two or three people and stacker.news became a lot more pleasant of a place.

37 sats \ 2 replies \ @guts 6 Feb

How will it be moderated? I'm open for a Monero territory but this could end up like some subs in Reddit using a territory to bash Monero.

For the Monero enthusiasts you are also welcome in Monero.town

39 sats \ 0 replies \ @rafael_xmr 7 Feb

I think it will be like on nostr, there's already a vocal monero group there even if it's a maxi echo chamber, that's because monero is the only crypto where bashing it doesn't work, the actions speak louder than words and no bitcoiner has managed to make the black markets go back to using bitcoin, so it ends into the acceptance of "save btc, use xmr" or something

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

As of now, it won't be, but that could change. Hopefully stackers won't be too big of dickheads. Other than Darth, but he can't help it. I just mute him as he doesn't contribute anything except memes. He's ceased to be relevant other than yelling at everyone like an old man on his from lawn.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @aS7017ur5 6 Feb

okay

27 sats \ 1 reply \ @denlillaapan 6 Feb

Alright!

Exciting.

I have a knee-jerk, no-touch, dismissal type of approach to Monero bros. I hope perhaps your posting here can meliorate this a little bit, perhaps outline the benefits/usages over and above bitcoin and how the existence of Monero assists Bitcoiners.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Look out for my next post then!

42 sats \ 1 reply \ @flat24 6 Feb

Great initiative... I also consider Monero to be a highly effective and powerful tool, so much so that I can't leave it aside. I also use Monero and would like to learn more.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Glad to have you. Just note that others may harass you. Make full use of the triple dots and mute option if need be. There are some shitheads on this platform that are anti-information.

18 sats \ 3 replies \ @Bell_curve 6 Feb

how do you acquire Monero? bisq or robosat?

9 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 6 Feb

Haveno

9 sats \ 1 reply \ @rafael_xmr 6 Feb

bisq robosats or haveno/retoswap, or atomic swaps using unstoppable swaps or basicswapdex

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 6 Feb

Thanks

I will look into swapping

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @rafael_xmr 6 Feb

Based

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Catcher 6 Feb

I was always wondering, if Monero has such a unique use case, isn’t it possible to just implement it with bitcoin. Like all these mixers and coin joins, why to have your own token? Well, You can even have it “under the hood” if you like, something similar to LBTC. Kinda not bitcoin, but still :) I hope you get my point:)

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @expatriotic OP 7 Feb

Not sure I understand, but unfortunately bitcoin devs don't push for (or really desire) privacy on the base layer. Hence it has to be pushed to 2nd layers. That's a key difference between the two.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @guts 6 Feb

No, monero has privacy and anonymity in layer 1

2 sats \ 1 reply \ @Catcher 6 Feb

I’m not really familiar with it, but for example - if I buy it on kyc exchange and then send it to you, can you track it back to the exchange?

24 sats \ 0 replies \ @guts 6 Feb

No, if you buy Monero on a KYC exchange and then send it to me, I cannot track it back to the exchange. However, the exchange itself may still have records of your purchase.