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100 sats \ 7 replies \ @anon 8 Feb \ parent \ on: Monero territory monero
Or you realize:
- No one is omniscient, so want to hedge your bets
- One is better than the other for privately transacting and cheaper for that (nothing to do with SoV narrative)
People forget that 'privacy' is the sum of both on-chain and off-chain privacy.
Can't have one without the other, and real meat-space flesh-and-blood privacy is at-least as important as on-chain and equally as multi-faceted.
And in addition to that, the privacy of the overall electronics really matters too, because the 'base' internet wasn't built with privacy in mind neither cell-phones.
I have yet, really seen any use-case or set of circumstances where Monero shines taking into account privacy in the 'real-world' involving real purchases and transactions. There is so much more to privacy that just whether it appears in a 'block-explorer' and the anonymity set (tiny for monero) is really crucial.
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Regarding your "privacy is the sum of both on-chain and off-chain privacy" comment - you're actually making the case for Monero here. Bitcoin's transparent ledger means your privacy depends entirely on perfect off-chain practices. One mistake and your entire financial history is exposed forever.
Real-world use cases for Monero are abundant - it's literally replacing Bitcoin on darknet markets because Bitcoin's traceability has led to arrests. This isn't theoretical - the FBI, Europol and other agencies have successfully traced Bitcoin transactions while failing to trace Monero.
Your point about "meat-space privacy" with cameras everywhere misses something crucial: financial surveillance isn't just about physical spaces. When you use Bitcoin, you broadcast your entire financial history to anyone who cares to look. Your balance, spending habits, and financial connections become public knowledge.
The "anonymity set" in Monero isn't "tiny" - it grows with every transaction through ring signatures, stealth addresses, and RingCT. These features work together to ensure that no one can determine who sent what to whom or how much was sent.
The fact that government agencies have put bounties on breaking Monero's privacy while successfully tracing Bitcoin transactions should tell you everything you need to know about which one actually works for privacy.
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One mistake and your entire financial history is exposed forever.
I... don't really agree with that.
If you have 'one Bitcoin' today and pay with it for a small item (a stick of gum or a cup of coffee for example) then sure yes I guess you are revealing your financial history in the process. The 'change' amount etc etc + on-chain history.
But Bitcoin isn't designed to be used that way. Otherwise every transaction can and will be traced to every other transaction, potentially for a set of users.
Base layer Bitcoin really isn't practical for small transactions, or even day-to-day transactions because it takes several 'blocks' to get enough confirmations, which is time consuming and the fees while low now will most likely rise significantly as utilization and education increases.
How i envision using Bitcoin (and how I've used it in person) is almost entirely through Lightning. Open the Lightning channel (preferably after a coinjoin) using a 'node on a phone' and go spend. Sending privacy on Lightning is very good... and with tools like wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12 so is the receiver privacy if used intelligently.
That way the fees are much, much less than 'on-chain' the transactions are instantaneous, and the privacy is much improved there is no 'blockchain' of Lightning transactions at all... maybe the opening and closing transactions but after that?
I made this post for a trip-report after a visit to Lugano, Switzerland spending Bitcoin-Lightning wherever I could... and it worked great. I used my own node and channels I opened and it did everything it was supposed to. I wanted to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke... and that lightning 'actually worked' in the real world.
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Your comment misses the fundamental issue with Lightning's privacy model.
Yes, if you use Lightning perfectly - with your own node, after a coinjoin, with wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12, etc. - you can achieve decent privacy. But this requires expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time.
The problem is that Lightning's privacy is bolted on as an afterthought, not built into the protocol. Your opening and closing transactions are still permanently recorded on Bitcoin's transparent ledger, creating immutable fingerprints that link to your financial history.
Lightning Network's total capacity is only ~5,000 BTC - that's just 0.002% of Bitcoin's total supply. This makes it completely inadequate for large-scale private transactions. For context, the Lazarus hack alone was ~15,000 BTC worth - the entire Lightning Network couldn't handle even a third of that.
You're right that base layer Bitcoin isn't practical for small transactions - that's why Lightning exists. But this creates a multi-layered privacy approach where you must maintain perfect operational security at every layer or risk complete exposure.
With Monero, privacy isn't optional or dependent on perfect user behavior - it's mandatory at the protocol level. One transaction, one set of privacy guarantees, regardless of user expertise.
Your anecdote about using Lightning in Lugano is great, but it doesn't address the fundamental privacy weakness - that Lightning channels are anchored to a transparent blockchain. And many people open these channels with KYC bitcoin using services like Strike or Cashapp...
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"Yes, if you use Lightning perfectly - with your own node, after a coinjoin, with wrapped invoices, LNAddress, Bolt 12, etc. - you can achieve decent privacy. But this requires expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time."
I agree with this completely, the level of study and curiosity... required to get all the moving parts right and manage privacy-risk is considerable. Lots of different technologies and techniques and it takes some 'looking' to find all the resources.
This is going to sound controversial... so bear with me. But I don't think that completely untraceable transactions for everyone for everything everywhere is what makes the world a better place. Transactions that are very private especially if conducted carefully is one thing. Every transaction completely private without exception... it seems to me it keeps the door wide-open for abuse or crime JUST my opinion.
I absolutely do NOT agree with the KYC requirements at most/all exchanges... but I think that's more about slowing Bitcoin's adoption as money threatening the dollar or Euro, rather than how or if the governments care how you spend. For any of this stuff to grow mainstream, we need tax reform on daily purchases and at that point Bitcoin is stronger money and capital and more private if used carefully... although it's not perfectly private.
Our legacy financial transactions are transparent to government if they look/get a search warrant for example and they are transparent to 3rd parties anyway. Bitcoin is an improvement already.
There is no way Lightning could handle that many BTC all at once. That's like 1.5 Billion? We would need way more users, liquidity and education about Lightning to get that big. I'm not sure that expectation is reasonable yet... considering the relatively few number of people who have even used Lightning.
As far as 'perfect privacy'... correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to run a Monero node anyway to be private?
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Every transaction completely private without exception... it seems to me it keeps the door wide-open for abuse or crime JUST my opinion.
More importantly, it defeats the purpose of a globally distributed, auditable ledger. For base layer money we don't want XMR level of "privacy". For the kind of spending XMR people are doing, they should be on layer 2's like Lightning anyway.
Another point @expatriotic seems to be missing is future development of LN. In a few years, things like BOLT12 will likely be so ubiquitous that no one has to have "expert-level knowledge and perfect execution every time." Lightning will just be that private and easy to use. Don't go off and create your own blockchain, ffs! Use and build better layer 2's instead.