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11 sats \ 13 replies \ @DarthCoin 16h \ on: Question of trust regarding LSPs lightning
Those are not "0-conf" channels. Are JiT (just-in-time) or inbound channels and there ARE broadcasting the onchain tx. Only that are available to use instantly (not after 3 conf as normal channels) because for them, there are no funds to lose, they already charged you a fee.
Here is what Olympus LSP is offering: https://docs.zeusln.app/category/services
And do not confuse them with these: https://docs.zeusln.app/for-users/embedded-node/trusted-funding
The so called 0-conf channels are something else and I presented them here in this SN post just few days ago: #909079
The JIT uses 0-conf still per the docs, so the received amount is still trusted at least temporarily
There was a epidemic of trust smuggling when it looked like the boot was going to come down last year, all this fragile JIT/Wrapped Invoices stuff worked its way in for optics
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The LSP detects the payment and opens up a 0-conf, just in time, channel to the receiver
Yea, this part is confusing for me. JiT channels allow a receiver to borrow liquidity from an LSP in using a wrapped invoice. At what point does this confirm on-chain?
If its not confirming on-chain at the time the channel is being opened, this sounds trusted. If its not confirming on-chain, then what enforces the LSP to be responsible and not double spend?
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It's definitely trusted until it's confirmed, I don't know the specifics of the implementation as to when it's broadcasted... the 0-conf in this context is that its a real channel but you can make state updates BEFORE its confirmed (can also be rugged before its confirmed)
Actually you're trusting them not to generate a thefty wrapped invoice too that doesn't forward to you, Stacker News does this too for ... because optics
Its all theater, its effectively no different than using a custodial wallet to save and buy a channel when ready, ShockWallet and Lightning.Pub lets you determine when this is to make it more cost effective beyond being a shared node
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I really appreciate that your high level of cynacism is backed up by an extraordinary amount of pow in building lightning.pub.
no different than using a custodial wallet to save and buy a channel when ready,
It's this line of thinking that led me to ask these questions. Unfortunately it feels like lightning relies overwhelmingly on such 'custodians'.
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ty
lightning relies overwhelmingly on such 'custodians'
Not so much Lightning itself, but yes Lightning users certainly do... it's extra unintuitive steps to avoid the LSPs... you can always just fund an outbound channel to another node directly if you know what you're doing and are inclined to do it.
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you can always just fund an outbound channel to another node directly if you know what you're doing and are inclined to do it.
The preferred way, but can this sustain all users .... #912374 👀
On another note, it would seem that BTCPay and and LNBits both do something similar to Lightning.pub, in terms of 'node sharig.' I'm not as familiar with LNBits, but using BTCPay, I know I can add users who can accept lightning payments into their 'account' using my node. When they want to withdraw, they can make a pull-payment request and then I forward the payment to their external wallet using a private, funded channel.
Do you care to differentiate lightning.pub from this style of 'node sharing?'
There are 2 types of "0-conf" channels:
- those that are like the Olympus is using for JiT and are confirmed onchain, but you can use them instantly even before the 1st confirmation. These are used for an easy onboarding new users.
- those that are never broadcast and confirmed, but these should be used only with trusted peers, or to yourself, your own nodes. https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/zero_conf_channels.md
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So they are broadcast, as a channel-open usually is, but you don't have to wait for the 3 block confirmation before using them. I'm guessing the wrapped invoice includes the channel open fee, paid for by the sender?
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Yes, in Olympus case is 10k sats (channel lease) + opening onchain fees + reserve channel
https://docs.zeusln.app/lsp/fees
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It feels too easy for the receiver. They get all the privacy advantages and the sender pays for it?