Obvious question is Obvious: Where the hell is everyone??? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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Obvious question is Obvious: Where the hell is everyone???

2847 sats \ 67 comments \ @028559d218 5 Jun bitcoin

For the life of me... I can't understand what is going on with the blockchain. It's a simple question really: where the hell is everyone?

Think of all the daily transactions, all the settlement across borders, the daily spends people make, the Lightning channels that need to get opened (trivial really), the channels that need to get closed or 'resized'...

The availability of Phoenix, Zeus, much less self-run Lightning nodes, plus all the onchain activity...

I saw a transaction for 9 Billion (?!) dollars of Bitcoin settled the other day for around 2$. It was secure. It was verifiable. Sure... maybe wait 9 blocks or 12 to be extra cautious with regards to a reorg but even then it's final settlement in like 2 hours. What legacy systems can do that?

Companies and individuals make these kinds of settlements and payments every single day all around the world, 24/7 and the Bitcoin blockchain is always working and available even with other settlement systems simply don't have the uptime/availability.

24/7 people trade real estate, gold, stocks, bonds, trinkets... when it's daytime somewhere it's nighttime somewhere else so the demand really 24/7 to use the Bitcoin blockchain really should be overwhelming.

Need to trade a building in Tokyo for property or cash in Berlin? Ok SURE there's demand for that. Settle that 'digitally' on Bitcoin it's faster and cheaper.

And if you want a few Lightning channels, either own your own or with an LSP then open them and you have quick and cheap payments that overwhelmingly work (in my experience).

So where the hell is everyone?

3 thousand on-chain transactions in a block, maybe stretched to 200 million a year, among 8 billion people, 200 million companies, in 70 countries...

The demand for on-chain should be overwhelming.

So where the hell is the rest of the Human Race???

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213 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 5 Jun

We’re early:

https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

Bitcoiners are smart people. Thanks for the link

50 sats \ 15 replies \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

Have you read Roger Ver's book, "Hijacking Bitcoin"?

I'm not a fan of it..... I think it's full of issues.

But it really does seem like there have been a few large scale psi-ops designed to neutralize Bitcoin and ensure it doesn't get "used" in any meaningful way.

Empty blocks suck. So do full blocks. Ultimately, I think Bitcoin is in a weird Goldilocks-zone of balance. A paradox where no metric ever looks "perfect" when viewed individually, but as a whole are perfectly balanced with respect to the reset of the system.

211 sats \ 9 replies \ @000w2 5 Jun

Literally everything I pay for with bitcoin is over lightning: esims, vpns, steam credit, zaps. I do more bitcoin transactions than ever but the fewest on-chain transactions I've ever done.

41 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

Same. And I love it. This is how it should be.

What worries me is that Bitcoin is not threatening the legacy monetary systems in any real way right now. This would make Satoshi frown, if he were still around today.

I guess the plan is to wait for their unstable system to collapse under its own weight and Bitcoin will be there with open arms for the survivors. Kinda sad, though, because I think Bitcoiners should be fighting for the change.... not waiting for it to happen. This means doing everything we can to stop using fiat, even if it makes our lives inconvenient. This is a moral and ethical thing to do. Gresham's Law is an excuse to be complacent.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fourrules 5 Jun

I think the first ever non-violent revolution is it's own power move, and trying to hasten things can only set us back.

12 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby 5 Jun

Exactly. When was your last on chain tx? Mine was more than a month ago.

22 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

I opened a large Lightning channel today at a rate of 1 Sat/vb. That channel will allow me to make thousands of Bitcoin payments.

Lightning ain't perfect.... but it's a 1000x better than the naysayers say.

34 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I think Lightning is great. Most of the 'fud' around Lightning... originates with the shitcoiners who know that Lightning destroys their fast-cheap-private coin's use case.

17 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Jun

Actually got paid like three days ago, so...

but I take your point

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Jun

Same

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nout 5 Jun

Yeah, I use lightning quite often and onchain only very rarely.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

God bless you

17 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I haven't read it. I have read plenty of the pro big block narratives... and I totally disagree with them because they don't make sense. Blockchains don't scale without layers.

We went from like... 200 sats/vb full of jpegs the end of 2023/early 2024... to like an all-time high exchange rate with practically empty blocks as of right now.

It's kind of jarring honestly. Granted Lightning Txs don't show at all but the on-chain element should be there regardless.

26 sats \ 3 replies \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

For what it's worth. I did my part. I opened a new Lightning channel today.

It ain't much, but it was fucking free.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I coinjoin a few sats now and then just for day... that one of my coworkers wants to buy some for themselves. I would sell them at spot (no markup) which is a great deal.

No takers so far.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

Damn. I wish I still had dollars to sell you. I'd take you up on that offer in a heartbeat.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I know right. (Small print: 'special rate' for normies only ;) )

reply on another page

50 sats \ 4 replies \ @OT 5 Jun

They'll come. Sooner or later

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

Dude. They haven't come yet. Why not? What are they waiting for? And if and when they do come... what will the consequences be? It should just be so obvious

5 sats \ 2 replies \ @OT 5 Jun

It happens in waves. This time is different where we had the traffic during the bear cycle. I'll bet in the next year or two there will be another spike in TX.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

Are we in a bear market right now?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 5 Jun

I don't think so, no.

33 sats \ 3 replies \ @DR_HELL 5 Jun

Most people just aren’t using it as a MOE yet, they’re speculating. The people who do own bitcoin are holding not spending, and the people spending the way you’re describing aren’t doing it in bitcoin (most likely due to misunderstanding it) for now

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I spend Bitcoin wherever I have the chance. Obviously I don't spend 'savings' savings are savings. But I look to spend a little bit where possible and there's not much...

What do you mean 'they're not doing it in Bitcoin'? What are they doing it in?

Self-custody will always be superior because it is truly 'yours'. Someone else has the keys they have it Humans have always wanted to have their 'own' stuff.

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @DR_HELL 5 Jun

They’re still doing it in wires and checks and cash. I’ve spent bitcoin plenty of times, but we’re still in the minority. You said it yourself, if more people were using bitcoin every day, we’d see it.

That being said, I was super excited about Squares announcement about adding lightning payments to all Square terminals over the next year. Things like that will normalize the idea of spending bitcoin instead of selling it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

100%. If I see square terminals that take Lightning I will be sure to try and use it to support the business model and technology. The Why comes first... then the How then the Where lol

61 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 5 Jun

where the hell is everyone?

Buying MSTR and IBIT. Coinbase Custody paper bitcoins aren't on-chain.

I for one have been doing more on-chain txs than I have in a long time though. I love it when inclusion fee is low.

33 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

MSTR and IBIT isn't real Bitcoin... sure it 'exists' somewhere... But you can't send it to someone, you can't coinjoin it, you can't open a channel with it etc etc... It negates the entire purpose of custody.

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 5 Jun

Sorry forgot /s haha.

26 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Jun

MoE use of Bitcoin has been explicitly banned in most autocracies. They say about 70% of the human race live under them. For the rest of us fortunate enough to live in the so called liberal democracies it is still technically legal to use Bitcoin as a MoE but it is also extremely inconvenient as you must record all transactions, account for the cost of Bitcoin when acquired vs the fiat denominated market value of it when you spend it, and pay the tax due. Who the fuck is going to do that? Nobody more or less- and so what MoE use Bitcoin gets is outside of the law- yes who here complies with their jurisdictions tax recording requirements when they zap? Anybody? Nobody is my guess...unless you live in El Salvador or one of the very few jurisdictions globally where MoE use is not liable for CGT assessment and payment.

The sly fiat debt slavery bankers cartel have made lawful use of Bitcoin effectively impracticable. Thus they have succeeded in obstructing Bitcoin MoE use, without explicitly banning it. They have successfully altered the predominant narrative and perception - redefined Bitcoin as a KYCed, taxed and corporate custodied speculative commodity plaything...where it is not used as a P2P payments protocol and poses very little competitive threat to fiats MoE monopoly.

Most Bitcoiners do not even see it...or if they can they do not want to acknowledge it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OriginalSize 1h

I don't know how anyone can speak for most bitcoiners. It's not like you can do a survey. Speaking for myself my time preference has been heavily affected by Bitcoin. It's hard to see much that can be obtained directly with coin that is worth the trade. The tools are working. The sheep are well herded. Bitcoin lies in wait.

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 5 Jun

The simple answer: using LN. I have years that I do not use onchain for regular payments. Only LN. And I have to mention: I live on Bitcoin standard (no more fiat here).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @KenyaCoin 10m

This is the correct answer.

Am using bitcoin more frequently than I did the previous month, which was more than the month before that, and so on. Because these involve custodial exchanges and wallets, probably not a single on-chain transaction was the result, at least not for my spending alone.

5 sats \ 3 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 5 Jun

People aren’t using it for daily transactions because they don’t see it as money, yet. They see it for speculation, they see it for secrecy, they see it for self-protection, but they don’t see it as everyday money, yet. We just have to be a bit more patient, time will tell.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

I believe in the next ten years we'll see progress. This video gives me hope:

My hope is that we'll look back on Lightning 10 years from now with awe.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 5 Jun

Oh, guaranteed that in 10 years things will be vastly different!! We may even be on the hyperbolic slope then!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Jun

Betting you don't know what mBridge or CIPS are.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 5 Jun

It's like Fermi's Paradox but for Bitcoin.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @realBitcoinDog 5 Jun

ITS SO EARLY

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Jun

Its been captured and is now predominantly a tracked and traced, KYCed and taxed speculative commodity plaything. Practical legal MoE use is effectively blocked almost everywhere.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @realBitcoinDog 22h

Bitcoin is dead?

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 20h

I'm not sure #998112

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 OP 21h

None of this (situation) makes any sense to me.

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @SwapMarket 5 Jun

In ETFs

19 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 OP 5 Jun

ETFs are 'make-believe' Bitcoin ownership. To really understand it you have to interact with keys which means self-custody.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Jun

Yes but they and corporate Treasury usage and hodling now account for the vast majority of use. Sweet FA of us still hope and want to use Bitcoin as a MoE...and when we do we are rarely able to do so in compliance with the law....that's no accident! Bitcoin MoE use has been successfully, and very slyly OBSTRUCTED and prevented from posing any real threat to fiats MoE hegemony. The result is that Bitcoin is not sustainable long term. Bitcoin with its reducing block subsidy can only ever be sustainable long term if it develops to provision mass scale MoE. Traditional payments providers charge 1-3%- Bitcoin does not need to charge that but it does need a growing demand for onchain transactions to support a healthy mining community long term. The development of that MoE growth has been slyly but determinedly blocked. As a stack and hoard SoV/speculative commodity there will not be enough miner revenue generated to preserve the security of the protocol as block subsidies decline. Bitcoin will decline inevitably, the way things are going, if its failure to gain mass scale MoE adoption continues.

12 sats \ 1 reply \ @SwapMarket 20h

maybe blocked for law-abiding retailers in the developed countries, but alive in well in unbanked third world and is growing in cross-border trade to avoid sanctions. try blocking that.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 16h

But in nearly all developing countries Bitcoin MoE is explicitly outlawed and so those using it are doing so at risk. It is estimated that 70% of humanity lives under an autocracy and nearly all autocracies prohibit Bitcoin use as a MoE. Actually in the developed liberal democracies retailers can technically accept BTC payments without too much complexity and tax obligation implications if they use an application/provider that converts BTC sales to fiat immediately, but virtually all their customers are going to be breaking their tax recording and reporting obligations and so too few customers willing to take that risk prevents mass scale adoption. The 'liberal democratic' states obstruction of MoE use is subtle and sly, but also very effective.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @fiatbad 5 Jun

True. But also concerning. This isn't what Satoshi wanted. This isn't what most of us signed up for.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @SwapMarket 5 Jun

Why does it bother you? I don't care how other people use Bitcoin. For my goals, it functions perfectly and with low fees.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 5 Jun

Network effect has been blocked. You ignore this out of arrogance or ignorance. Bitcoin has been redefined into a harmless speculative commodity plaything held and controlled increasingly by bankers and only used as a MoE on the very margins and almost always outside the the law.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @SwapMarket 20h

yes, I use it outside of the law, as intended. freedom borderless money is not subject to any government's laws. only hardcoded consensus rules. most official businesses are enslaved by the system and cannot be free. same for most individuals.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 17h

I do too but my point is that most people are not using it regardless of the legality of using it- they do not even see/understand the importance of money free of censorship and state control.

I would love it if more merchants in my city accepted Bitcoin but they don't- because nearly all Bitcoiners here are stacking for speculative gain, not for MoE freedom...and if they use any of their sats for MoE they will almost certainly be breaching tax law unless making detailed record and collation of all expenditure.

The legal MoE use of Bitcoin has been made so absurdly inconvenient as to effectively obstruct any chance of mass scale adoption.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Thisdaystacker 5 Jun

Good morning all

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @guerratotal 5 Jun outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Cultural_stacker 5 Jun

Bitcoiners are indeed smart people

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 5 Jun

On Wallet of Satoshis.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Crow 5 Jun

...waiting for an authority, or the TV to tell them that bitcoin is a legit thing!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 5 Jun

Excellent questions.

Probably the primary (or secondary...price rules) indication that all is not well with bitcoin