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It's the convenience versus security tradeoff. PayPal can be very convenient. It's not secure -- with PayPal itself being the biggest risk factor. Zelle is much better, but is U.S. only (well, to clarify, ... it is for bank accounts in the U.S. only).

There really are few good alternatives for buying or selling bitcoin P2P. In-person Cash (also known as "Face-to-face"), cash deposited into your bank account (which few banks permit), postal money order, and prepaid gift cards. Other methods such as mobile money can work depending on the provider, and remittance services (i.e., remittance payment sent to the P2P seller) work as well but those both require identity verification / KYC.

Here's a Tweet that kicks off a thread that provides more info.

If you use PayPal for any kind of business, you should take careful note of the following change to PayPal's terms of service, effective September 19:

https://twitter.com/legalinspire/status/1558930987232395270 https://nitter.it/legalinspire/status/1558930987232395270

And here's the first Mastodon post in a thread also with good info:

so uh

paypal's changing their terms again to basically state plainly that they'll be using bots to scrape your websites and social media for TOS compliance. it specifies users who have paypal integrated into their site, but us longtime working freelancers know they've been snooping on us for a while

don't integrate paypal into your site. only do transactions with invoices. no excess info on those, ESPECIALLY if you do nsfw work

don't put paypal dot me links on your social media


U.S. business accounts will not be able to receive personal transactions from PayPal accounts outside the U.S. starting October 31, 2022.

What this means: [Person outside the U.S.] ----[send money]---> [U.S. business] Not Allowed (i.e., You won't be able to sell bitcoin to someone outside the U.S. if you have a business account at PayPal.)

U.S. PayPal accounts will not be able to send personal transactions to business accounts outside the U.S. starting October 31, 2022.

What this means: [U.S. business] ----[send money]---> [Person outside the U.S.] Not Allowed (i.e., You won't be able to buy bitcoin from someone outside the U.S. if you are paying from a business account.at PayPal.)

If you integrate or reference PayPal services on your website, we are clarifying that PayPal may use automated technologies (e.g., website crawling) to assess your website to ensure compliance with the user agreement and to combat fraud.

What this means: PayPal's bots are going to scrape your website to determine that you aren't selling anything that violates their user agreement.

Essentially every bank that supports Zelle has in their terms of service:

The following types of payments are prohibited through the Zelle® and Other Payment Services, and we have the right but not the obligation to monitor for, block, cancel and/or reverse such payments:

F. Payments relating to transactions that:

e. are associated with the following “money service business” activities: the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, currency dealers or exchanges (including digital currencies such as Bitcoin), or check cashing; or


Good question. Maybe because the Order number is how the trade is identified. For example, the path in the URL for the order is /order/nnnnn

If you have multiple offers, having the Order number makes it easier to verify that you are paying the right invoice, or makes tracking a payment later easier.

Or maybe there is another reason that I'm not aware of.

Right. If you were to use something like Kraken (which requires identity verification / KYC) to pay the lightning invoice using your account balance at Kraken, you probably don't want them to have access to data that would indicate this was a P2P trade on RoboSats.

The problem was that order information on RoboSats is public. So, for example, let's say one of the 87,000 new IRS agents asks Kraken to share the invoice info from withdrawals made, and they see that Bob made a 3M sat withdrawal (~$750) for order #12345, they can then find that order #12345 was where the seller (Bob) sold bitcoin at $25,000. And Kraken shows Bob previously bought that bitcoin at $18K. And Bob didn't report any capital gains for that year. That becomes a problem. By simply not including that Order # in the LN invoice description, the ability to link the LN withdrawal from Kraken to a specific order on RoboSats is essentially impossible as only the buyer and seller have that payment reference GUID information that Kraken would have seen.

That's one example. Another is where, let's say, a data breach at Kraken reveals that Alice (buyer) has received dozens of LN deposits into her Kraken account, and from those RoboSats order numbers from the LN invoices it can be seen that she uses Zelle as her payment method used when buying those sats. And then Zelle terminates her account as a result. Nobody wants or needs that.

This Tweet explains why Stealth invoices was added.

You can now enable "Stealth Invoices" on your robot profile 🥷

Enable it for invoices with succinct descriptions. Ideal if you are using a third party lightning wallet (i.e., not your own node).

Stay private 🤖🤘

https://twitter.com/RoboSats/status/1558579785361670148 https://nitter.it/RoboSats/status/1558579785361670148

And here's the issue in the RoboSats github explaining further:

Add 'stealth invoices': an On/Off toggle for lightning invoice description #168 https://github.com/Reckless-Satoshi/robosats/issues/168

Here's a post on their website with much of the same info:

Large Cash Withdrawals guidance in FAQs is for personal [bank account] customers only.

What is the maximum amount I can withdraw from a branch? https://supportcentre.natwest.com/Banking-near-me/Withdrawals/913244082/What-is-the-maximum-amount-I-can-withdraw-from-a-branch.htm

There are a number of BTC/BRL exchanges in Brazil, if that's what you are asking. There are a number of KYC-Free methods as well, including P2P trading platforms such as HodlHodl, LocalCoinSwap, LocalCryptos, RoboSats, and Bisq. But if your payment method is bank transfer or something like that, you still have a link that the seller has then between your bank and your coins.

As far as getting a 10% markup over spot via coinjoin/mixing/lightning, I'm not sure how that's done. You can try to reduce the price you pay for the bitcoin you acquire by offering a price that is competitive but yet below spot. But just spot-checking on one of the P2P platforms, .... LocalCryptos, it appears a seller will find numbers buyers ready and waiting to pay above spot:


There may be opportunities though. For instance, on RoboSats, I don't see any other buyers (which is not unexpected -- RoboSats is new, and requires Tor browser, so its userbase is fairly small yet). No buyers means you can put in an offer to buy below spot, and a seller wanting a trade promptly may come along and sell to you at your price.

Even if an identity can be obfuscated from an individual’s bitcoin transactions, the KYCing third party still retains all the user's personally identifiable information (PII), including name, address, selfies and total purchase amount.

Monero doesn't fix that.

And the point made in the article about exchanges and services disallowing deposits which were either mixed or from a coinjoin, or even warning the customer for coinjoin after withdrawal, those same services won't even touch Monero. So yes, while Monero has better privacy that on-chain bitcoin transactions that haven't had privacy protection measures (e.g., coinjoin) perform, KYC is a problem for Monero users just as it is for bitcoin users.

“If we just comply with Covid lockdowns, mandates, and restrictions, then we’ll be able to return to normal and be free.”

“If we just comply with KYC and regulations, then we’ll be able to defeat the state and central banks and be free.”

Same energy.

https://twitter.com/zedact3d/status/1553820426865893380 https://nitter.it/zedact3d/status/1553820426865893380

Also, RoboSats increased the max trade size:

🤖RoboSats has leveled up!⬆️

New max trade limit is now 4 Million Sats. You can now use RoboSats in Czech!🇨🇿Thanks a lot to @wertikoda

https://twitter.com/RoboSats/status/1553752732804300800 https://nitter.it/RoboSats/status/1553752732804300800 <-- Shows the thread in a single, easy-to-read, web page

The "travel rule" adopted in EU is causing exchanges to have to become extensions of the state, essentailly. So KYC-Free trading on RoboSats is a very good alternative.

I only see, at the moment, EUR offers where Revolut is the payment method. SEPA payments can be sent person-to-person (unlike ACH payments for U.S. banks) and are not easily reversed, so I'ld assume they would be common on RoboSats, but the transaction has to settle essentially instantly because the method RoboSats uses for escrow ("hold" invoices) has a short time expiration, which would result in dispute state if too much time passes (e.g., 24 hours). So maybe SEPA payments don't work for that. Bank transfers for GBP using Faster Payments should work well.

Chart: RoboSats - Total per month per currency

Chart: RoboSats - Total per month per currency [YTD]

Chart: RoboSats - Volume by currency

Chart: RoboSats - Volume by currency [July]

Some beautiful images in that thread:

Chart: RoboSats - Daily volume by currency [July]

Chart: RoboSats - Daily volume by currency [July]

Become a lender using Lend at HodlHodl.

Lend out stablecoins, and hold bitcoin as collateral. You set the terms. If the value of the collateral drops below the margin requirement, it is automatically "liquidated" (i.e., you have access to spend the collateral) -- so there's much less risk to you as the lender.


But even with a bank trade, ... there's not a huge risk. Take this hypothetical.

State actor is trying to identify Eva who sold some illegal drug on a dark market to an undercover law enforcement agent. So the state actor knows the bitcoin address LE sent the payment to. And then Sally buys the bitcoin from Eva, and pays with, oh say Zelle. So LE can see that the bitcoin being traced went eventually to Sally. Then Sally deposits the BTC at a KYC'd exchange (to buy shitcoins, let's say), which lets LE figure out that Eva's coins went to Sally. Then they find that Sally did a Zelle transfer a day after the agent did the dark market buy.

So yes, at that point -- LE then knows both Sally's name and Eva's name, and their bank accounts used in the trade. But they aren't after Sally the shitcoiner, they are after Eva, so there's probably no real issue (today) for Sally.

If Sally wanted to lessen the chance that LE or anyone else would know about the bitcoin trade, Sally could use CoinJoin or one of the other methods to maintain financial privacy. So even though Sally deposited bitcoin with a KYC'd exchange, there's nothing to tie those bitcoin to the ones Sally bought from Eva.

Doh, I forgot -- there are bitcoin ATMs that are KYC-Free (e.g., up to $900). And there are also voucher sellers (e.g., Azteco) where cash can be used that are KYC-Free.

Here's a list of methods. The ones that are KYC-Free are generally indicated.

Person-to-Person bitcoin Trading Platforms https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges

There's also this list of physical locations. Some are KYC-Free, but that's not indicated.

Physical Stores where you can Buy or Sell bitcoin https://cointastical.github.io/Physical-Locations-Bitcoin/

Yes, they can work well in matching repeat sellers (e.g., miners, or those who get paid in bitcoin) with repeat buyers who prefer to trade KYC-Free and with cash.

Even though there are KYC-free P2P trading platforms like Bisq, LocalCoinSwap, LocalCryptos, HodlHodl (outside U.S.), Agora Desk, etc. there's not a lot of in-person cash trading. It doesn't take long for a repeat seller to get more requests from buyers than the supply, so those sellers stop listing on the P2P platform. But the trading continues. Same for Telegram and Whatsapp trading groups in certain regions (e.g., Hong Kong, London, Tapei, etc.) where a lot of in-person cash trading for bitcoin occurs but those traders don't even need to list on a P2P platform.